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+--- Thread: What Was The Role of David Herold (/thread-581.html)
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - John Fazio - 04-05-2013 10:14 PM
[quote='wsanto' pid='15727' dateline='1365191684']
[quote='John Fazio' pid='15718' dateline='1365183801']
[quote='Laurie Verge' pid='15717' dateline='1365183764']
I have to disagree with you on the closeness of the various places - having walked to every one of them in my better days. We need only consider Seward's home on Lafayette Park (behind the White House so close to 16th Street), the Treasury building at 15th and F, Kirkwood House at 12th and Pennsylvania, and Ford's Theatre in mid-block of Tenth Street.
Where does the Willard even figure in except for Herold riding past it while heading to the Navy Yard Bridge? And, I don't understand your reference to Herold riding from Ford's to the Willard.
William, Laurie, et al:
I believe I previously presented enough evidence to show that Herold was more likely in or around Ford's that night for the purpose of helping Booth than he was accompanying Powell. Consider as additional evidence the statement attributed to Herold in the newspaper article just presented to us by Roger, in which he said that his role in the "kidnapping" plot was to put out the gas. This is not the first time we have seen his name mentioned in connection with putting out the gas. Consider, further, the statements attributed to Booth in connection with Atzerodt's refusal to kill Johnson, namely "then we will do it", i.e. he and Herold, and "Herold had more courage (or pluck)". Consider another use of the royal plural when Booth told Lloyd that he was pretty sure that "we" (i.e. he and Herold)had assassinated the President and the Secretary of State. Consider Atzerodt saying flatly in one of his confessions that Booth had assigned Herold to kill Johnson. And consider, lastly, this from Lafayette Baker:
"Atzerodt made a partial confession to the Rev. Mr. Butler, a few hours before his execution. He stated that...Booth intended that Herold should assassinate Johnson and he wanted him (Atzerodt) to back him up and give him courage. Booth thought that Herold had more pluck..." (Baker, p. 510)
It seems reasonably obvious to me that Booth was making do with what he had, and he didn't have much. He would, therefore, make use of both Herold AND Atzerodt in disposing of Johnson, which would explain why Atzerodt was seen going into the Kirkwood at killing time and then leaving in about 5 minutes, despite having previously begged off, which was later confirmed by Powell. He was apparently thwarted in his purpose for reasons unknown to us, and it is probable that Herold was thwarted by the same obstacle, whatever it was, when he went to the Kirkwood from Ford's. Thus, Herold would come away from the Kirkwood certain that Johnson was untouched, which is what he told Booth when they met at the foot of the hill. That explains why Booth did not include Johnson in his list of victims when to told Lloyd what he thought they had accomplished that night. He could only have been told by Herold and Herold could not have known unless he had been at the Kirkwood.
And if you think that's something, you should have seen how I figured everything out with Bacall at Key Largo.
John
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - John Fazio - 04-06-2013 07:02 AM
(04-05-2013 06:19 PM)L Verge Wrote: I'm like Betty, I love Roscoe's book - but I don't trust everything in it. In many cases (and I think the Herold/Powell issue is one), it is very likely that Roscoe did like many others and just copied/paraphrased what other authors had said, especially about Powell being a numbskull. Col. Mosby did not accept numbskulls in his unit!
Every one of us who express our opinions on this subject interject our own speculations into the story and usually do not have sound evidence to back up those opinions. Just say something enough times, and hopefully the majority of people will believe you. There's at least one book that I could name right now that bases about 75% of its text on just that premise. I do it all the time in trying to prove my point that Herold and Booth intended to go to Mudd's house all along, whether or not a broken leg necessitated it.
As for why a point man was needed: First, two sets of eyes converging on a target is better than one - especially in dim lights. Herold could be a calming influence on Powell just because he did know the layout of the land so well. And, this whole assassination plot depended on careful synchronization or timing of each murder. They all needed to be committed basically together. It is sort of like terrorism acts today -- set off car bombs in three different locations around town in order to split the police force sent to check out the situation. Herold was the man in charge of making sure that each assignment was carried out and which assassins needed to depart the city.
As for Booth needing Herold to get him through Southern Maryland - most definitely. We know of only three trips we can verify that he made into that territory, and some of those were via stagecoach. Those backroads are confusing now. You can just imagine what they were like in 1865. I can travel the Booth escape route with my eyes closed now, but I've been over the route at least 150 times over the past fifty years. Booth didn't have my advantage.
Laurie:
I would like you to know that I agree with you that Booth and Herold (and perhaps Atzerodt too, if he had chosen to follow them) intended to go to Dr. Mudd's home regardless of Booth's injury. The argument against this ignores Arnold's statement to McPhail that Booth corresponded with Drs. Mudd, Garland and Queen. It also ignores Atzerodt's May 1 confession in which he said that Dr. Mudd was part of the conspiracy and that "liquors and provisions" had been sent to him for pick-up by the fugitives when they made their way south. It also ignores the fact that Dr. Mudd was very much a part of the conspiracy and had already played a major role in it by helping Booth gather his team and by meeting with him at least three times, possibily more. Further, we know that on at least two occasions, to two people, Dr. Mudd subsequently admitted that he recognized Booth immediately that night. The charade that followed was therefore probably for Frankie's benefit.
John
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Laurie Verge - 04-06-2013 08:17 AM
I'm glad we agree on the Mudd issue. Now I just have to change your mind on the activities of Herold!
As for Frankie Mudd, I remember years ago being told by Mike Kauffman that letters that Mudd wrote to his wife almost place the blame on her for him landing in prison. I don't think Sam was happy about Frankie conveniently finding Booth's discarded boot and presenting it to the authorities.
BTW: If anyone can find information on a Dr. Garland, please let us know. Hall, Tidwell, and Gaddy were searching for him, and the closest I could get was a Dr. Garland who left Maryland and went to Richmond to serve Jefferson Davis. I turned over all my notes to Mr. Hall, but I don't think he was ever able to make solid documentation -- and now I have no notes nor desire to retrace my steps.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - MaddieM - 04-06-2013 08:24 AM
(04-05-2013 05:01 PM)BettyO Wrote:Quote:"To Herold, Paine doubtless seemed a backwoods moron. At least six times that evening Herold described for Paine the escape route across the city. Paine couldn't remember it. As they approached Lafayette Square the numbskull had to be told Dr. Verdi's name over and over; he kept forgetting it."
Does anyone know where Roscoe obtained any of this?
How DO we know this? Was Roscoe there? Much as I love Roscoe's book (read it in one week and couldn't put it down, I remember) I question this statement. Powell was no backwoods moron - no numbskull. According to Gillette and others, he was somewhat educated and cultured. The fact that he had difficulty remembering a foreign name indicates to me that he was nervous - especially in lieu of his rather panicked behavior when within the house.
Being unable to remember small things like this indicates to me that he was perhaps distracted, his mind filled with other things, thereby interfering with his concentration. I suspect he wasn't wholly confident about what he had to do, and this also accounts for the botched job and the way he lashed out. Powell injured people because he was tall and strong, rather than calculating and determined. I think he did panic and I think he lost control and found himself floundering and just lashing out. That he failed to kill Seward speaks volumes of his mindset to me. That boy was no assassin, and he was far from cool as he was doing it. Seward was an easy target, a single stab to the chest would have done for him, but Powell wasn't thinking along those lines, he clearly had nothing planned and no modus operandi for hitting his victim in places that were fatal. I think he went for the neck because he was told to, either that or it was the only part of Seward's flesh that was exposed in the dim lighting and he just hoped he'd hit the right mark. Not exactly the actions of a determined killer.
One wonders if bravado and his youthful capacity for not thinking too much about the consequences of his actions played a large part in why he did this. It's telling that the older members of the conspiracy refused to have any part in the killing. I think also that there are many reasons why Powell took this course, not just the most obvious and crass one of him being a dumb, evil psychopath.
I dunno. Just my thoughts on it.
(04-05-2013 06:19 PM)L Verge Wrote: As for why a point man was needed: First, two sets of eyes converging on a target is better than one - especially in dim lights. Herold could be a calming influence on Powell just because he did know the layout of the land so well. And, this whole assassination plot depended on careful synchronization or timing of each murder. They all needed to be committed basically together. It is sort of like terrorism acts today -- set off car bombs in three different locations around town in order to split the police force sent to check out the situation. Herold was the man in charge of making sure that each assignment was carried out and which assassins needed to depart the city.
Could it be that Booth just wanted to ensure Herold didn't chicken out himself? He wasn't the most mature individual from all accounts, and perhaps this was more about Powell keeping an eye on Herold, rather than the other way around until the time came for the pair of them to meet up with Booth. I think Booth knew he could depend on Powell.. he had a proven track record of courage and reliability, and as testimony has shown, was also an honest and loyal person who could be trusted to keep his mouth shut. Could Booth have been concerned Herold would goof something up, so he sent him along with Powell to keep him out of trouble? I guess we'll never know. But it seems odd that Powell would need an escort in this matter, as he'd been to Seward house several times earlier in the week, hadn't he? Also, he was canny enough to find his way back to the Surratt Boarding house after spending 3 days in hiding, so he must have known his way about Washington reasonably well.
The other alternative is if Powell was nervous and showing signs of weakness that Booth feared might mean he'd goof it up. But judging from Powell's track record in the Army and with Mosby, I doubt that. More a case of second thoughts perhaps?
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - BettyO - 04-06-2013 08:43 AM
Agreed, Maddie!
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - wsanto - 04-06-2013 09:14 AM
(04-05-2013 10:14 PM)John Fazio Wrote: [quote='wsanto' pid='15727' dateline='1365191684']
[quote='John Fazio' pid='15718' dateline='1365183801']
[quote='Laurie Verge' pid='15717' dateline='1365183764']
I have to disagree with you on the closeness of the various places - having walked to every one of them in my better days. We need only consider Seward's home on Lafayette Park (behind the White House so close to 16th Street), the Treasury building at 15th and F, Kirkwood House at 12th and Pennsylvania, and Ford's Theatre in mid-block of Tenth Street.
Where does the Willard even figure in except for Herold riding past it while heading to the Navy Yard Bridge? And, I don't understand your reference to Herold riding from Ford's to the Willard.
John
John,
The Willard Hotel is right across 15th Street from the east side of the Treasury Building. The north side of the Treasury Building is basically right across the street from Madison Place (the site of Seward's house).
If one were to walk from Madison place toward the site of the Kirkwood one would walk around the northeast corner of the Treasury down 15th Street and turn left onto Pennsylvania directly in front of the Willard. It would take less the two minutes to be directly in front of the Willard Hotel from Madison Place.
Fletcher saw Herold riding past the Willard from the direction of the Treasury Building between 10:15 and 10:30. That means Herold was riding southeast from 15th Street down Pennsylavania Ave toward the direction of the Kirkwood at 12th and Pennsylvania and in the general direction of the Navy Yard Bridge when he was seen by Fletcher.
What do you think Herold was doing so far north of the Kirkwood and Ford's Theater and the Navy Yard Bridge between 10:15 and 10:30 if he wasn't riding away from Lafayette Park?
Bill
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Laurie Verge - 04-06-2013 11:19 AM
Please tell me what references are being used to place Herold with Booth in front of Ford's Theatre (or anywhere in the vicinity) around 9:30-10:00 pm that night. I thought the last meeting of any of the conspirators was about 7 pm at the Herndon House. Isn't there some reference to Powell and Herold already being on the Square when the watchman called the hour and locked a gate?
Personally, I think Kauffman has a reasonable assumption in stating that Herold was with Powell until it was obvious that there was one little snag. A doctor was still inside the Seward home. The ruse of delivering medicine might not work. This threw off the timing, and Herold took off to tell the others to hold off on their missions -- just as any good point man would do. He could not locate Atzerodt, and by the time he headed to Ford's, Booth had completed his deed. The only thing left was to get the heck out of town.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - RJNorton - 04-07-2013 08:26 AM
At the conspiracy trial (and also at John Surratt's trial) Joseph M. Dye testified that he saw Booth with two other men standing in front of Ford's Theatre prior to the assassination. Assuming Dye was correct that it was Booth, who were the others? I believe the prosecution tried to show they were John Surratt and possibly Ned Spangler. Since Spangler was inside attending to his duties, could the other person be David Herold? Dye was questioned about this person:
Q. Can you give a more particular description of the ruffianly-looking man whom you saw? What was his size? And what was it that gave him such a ruffianly appearance. Was it is his dress?
A. He was not as well dressed as the rest of them.
Q. Was he shabbily dressed or dirtily dressed?
A. His clothes had been worn a considerable time; and he had a bloated appearance.
Q. Was he a stout man?
A. Yes, sir; and a rough face.
Dye was asked if he could identify the "ruffian" among the defendants, and he could not make a positive identification.
Is it known how David Herold was dressed the night of the assassination? Is Dye credible? Assuming Surratt was in Elmira, who was the third man with Booth? Is there any chance...any chance whatsoever.... that the "ruffian" was David Herold? Lots of questions regarding Dye's testimony. I do not have the answers.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - BettyO - 04-07-2013 09:03 AM
Could this have been Atzerodt? A Rough face with a bloated appearance?
Although characterized as stout, Powell was well dressed and had more or less a "genteel" air as was stated by Mrs. Grant. Powell's face was not "rough" nor bloated - so I don't think it was him....neither was Herold rough nor bloated looking. Sounds like Atzerodt to me.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Craig Hipkins - 04-07-2013 10:08 AM
I agree with Betty. That description sounds more like Atzerodt than Herold.
Craig
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - L Verge - 04-07-2013 03:19 PM
I agree that the description fits Atzerodt more; however, I thought this subject was brought up earlier as to who was seen outside of Ford's front entrance and someone posted information on it being either an actor or theater employee. My dementia is acting up today, but I don't think I imagined that.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - wsanto - 04-07-2013 08:39 PM
Dye's testimony is very interesting to read through.
Basically he witnesses three men interacting outside Ford's Theatre between 9:30 and 10:10 PM. For the most part, one of the three is walking back and forth on the street in front of Ford's and calling out the time as he reads it from Ford's lobby to the other two men who are waiting at the entrance to the alley next to the theatre. When he calls out 10:10 PM the well-dressed man (whom he identifies as Booth from a picture) enters the lobby of Ford's.
When asked if he recognizes any of the defendants he basically identifies the ruffian as Spangler but claims he had a dark mustache that night. He seems quite certain that if Spangler had a black mustache he could positively identify him as the ruffian.
The third man, the one calling out the times as he walked back and forth in front of Ford's, he describes as very neat, well dressed, and as a small man at about 5'6", with a mustache and a fashionable black hat with a round top and a stiff brim.
To be quite honest, I am not sure what to make of it. I've never heard of this aspect of the story before. None of these descriptions sound anything close to describing Herold.
It makes me wonder who these folks really were and whether or not any of the three were really associated with the assassination. It certainly does seem awfully suspicious.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Gene C - 04-07-2013 08:58 PM
(04-07-2013 08:39 PM)wsanto Wrote: It certainly does seem awfully suspicious.
I can't make up my mind which is more suspicious.
The alleged actions of the three men, or Dye's testimony.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - KateH. - 04-07-2013 09:57 PM
Assuming that theatre in the Civil War shares some similarities with modern day theatre, Spangler could not have been moving around outside at any point during the show. Speaking from experience, backstage workers have no free time to roam about willy-nilly because they are constantly moving set pieces and setting up for the coming scenes. Even intermission offers no break for the crew. The fact that Dye tried to claim Spangler was one of the men is very interesting.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - wsanto - 04-08-2013 07:23 PM
(04-07-2013 09:57 PM)KateH. Wrote: Assuming that theatre in the Civil War shares some similarities with modern day theatre, Spangler could not have been moving around outside at any point during the show. Speaking from experience, backstage workers have no free time to roam about willy-nilly because they are constantly moving set pieces and setting up for the coming scenes. Even intermission offers no break for the crew. The fact that Dye tried to claim Spangler was one of the men is very interesting.According to testimony by Jim Maddox, he agrees, on the one hand, that Spangler could not have been missing for very long from his duties but, on the other, admits that scene one of Act 3 is twenty-five minutes and that during long scenes the backstage crew may go missing for a bit for one reason or another.