I have to disagree with you on the closeness of the various places - having walked to every one of them in my better days. We need only consider Seward's home on Lafayette Park (behind the White House so close to 16th Street), the Treasury building at 15th and F, Kirkwood House at 12th and Pennsylvania, and Ford's Theatre in mid-block of Tenth Street.

Where does the Willard even figure in except for Herold riding past it while heading to the Navy Yard Bridge? And, I don't understand your reference to Herold riding from Ford's to the Willard.

Sorry, your scenario just does not compute - but Fletcher's statement putting Herold between Seward's and the Avenue does, and it's the only written, primary evidence that I know of (and taken from a man who had a vested interest in getting the description correct since he was viewing a horse that he was responsible for).

(03-27-2013 04:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(12-30-2012 04:14 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  From American Brutus:

"Lewis Powell and David Herold had already gone to Lafayette Park. The Park superintendent always called out the time as he locked the gate, and as soon as that happened, Powell would approach the Sewards' house. He would knock on the door, and then tell the servant he had medicine to give the secretary. It seemed an excellent plan, but at the last minute a complication arose: one of Seward's doctors was still in the house. Now Powell had to either come up with a new cover story or delay his attack. Since nothing came to mind, he sent Harold galloping away to tell the others to hold off."

Thus, Mike Kauffman has Herold riding from the Seward home to the Kirkwood House to tell Atzerodt to delay the attack on Johnson. I have asked this before, but we have some new members since then. Does anyone know the source for Mike Kauffman's version? Fletcher's testimony helps in placing where Herold was but does not help with answering the question about delaying the attacks. Mr. Kauffman's book, as far as I can recall, is the only assassination book in which I have I read this version.

Roger:

I have been through 90 books on the assassination and find Kauffman's scenario re Herold telling the others to hold off nowhere else. Similarly, Roscoe has a bizarre description of the episode which is found nowhere else. Without a source, I am very skeptical of both scenarios.

John

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(03-27-2013 04:54 AM)BettyO Wrote:  I've changed my original affirmations in Alias to reflect more or less on the pointman theory -- I agree with Laurie - I think Herold was the "Point Man" -

Powell knew his way around DC well enough to get out - even if he wasn't headed back to Virginia

Betty:

The point man theory sounds plausible. The problem is that there is not a grain of evidence to support it, as far as I know, whereas there is evidence to put him at or in the vicinity of Ford's that night. Still, it wouldn't take long to just escort Powell there, watch him enter the house and then leave. So it must be regarded as at least possibile. But how, then, do you reconcile this with the Tahoe servant's story and the fact that Atzerodt does not record the assignment, when he recorded everyone else's assignment?

John

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(04-05-2013 12:42 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  I have to disagree with you on the closeness of the various places - having walked to every one of them in my better days. We need only consider Seward's home on Lafayette Park (behind the White House so close to 16th Street), the Treasury building at 15th and F, Kirkwood House at 12th and Pennsylvania, and Ford's Theatre in mid-block of Tenth Street.

Where does the Willard even figure in except for Herold riding past it while heading to the Navy Yard Bridge? And, I don't understand your reference to Herold riding from Ford's to the Willard.

Sorry, your scenario just does not compute - but Fletcher's statement putting Herold between Seward's and the Avenue does, and it's the only written, primary evidence that I know of (and taken from a man who had a vested interest in getting the description correct since he was viewing a horse that he was responsible for).

Laurie:

I should have known better than to challenge a native of the area. You will have to give me a little time to study the geography.

John

(04-05-2013 12:43 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(04-05-2013 12:42 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  I have to disagree with you on the closeness of the various places - having walked to every one of them in my better days. We need only consider Seward's home on Lafayette Park (behind the White House so close to 16th Street), the Treasury building at 15th and F, Kirkwood House at 12th and Pennsylvania, and Ford's Theatre in mid-block of Tenth Street.

Where does the Willard even figure in except for Herold riding past it while heading to the Navy Yard Bridge? And, I don't understand your reference to Herold riding from Ford's to the Willard.

Sorry, your scenario just does not compute - but Fletcher's statement putting Herold between Seward's and the Avenue does, and it's the only written, primary evidence that I know of (and taken from a man who had a vested interest in getting the description correct since he was viewing a horse that he was responsible for).

Laurie:

I should have known better than to challenge a native of the area. You will have to give me a little time to study the geography.

John

John,

I have stayed at the Willard and walked to Ford's Theatre and been up and down Pennsylavania Ave. These are long city blocks and the walk from the Willard to Ford's is 15+ minutes. But the Willard is very close to Laffayette Park (2-min walk). The only thing between the Willard and the site of Seward's house is the Treasury Building.

If Herold's assignment was to be with Booth at Ford's on 10th Street he would have never been close to the Willard and certainly not seen riding away from the Treasury on 15th street. Even if he went to the Kirkwood on 12th from Ford's, it is still, in my opinion too far away from the Willard for him to have been seen riding past there.

In my opinion, Fletcher's testimony, if it is even close to being accurate, is evidence that Herold was riding away from Laffayette Park between 10:15 and 10:30. To where and why is up to imagination and speculation.

Why would Powell need an escort to the Seward House?

I think we covered this earlier, Maddie, but my point (and that of several others - including Mike Kauffman, whom I often disagree with) is that Herold was not an escort, but a point man to make sure that Powell got in the Seward door and then take off to see that Atzerodt and Booth were also accomplishing their deeds.

BTW: I will be seeing a relative of Atzerodt tomorrow when he brings a group on a Booth Tour. I first met him in 1983, and have only talked to him a few times over the years. I believe that George was his great-grand uncle -- however, don't quote me on that because I am lousy at genealogy and lineage.

(04-05-2013 12:43 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  I have been through 90 books on the assassination and find Kauffman's scenario re Herold telling the others to hold off nowhere else. Similarly, Roscoe has a bizarre description of the episode which is found nowhere else. Without a source, I am very skeptical of both scenarios.

John, I was very curious to see what Roscoe had to say after I read your post. Here's a portion:

"To Herold, Paine doubtless seemed a backwoods moron. At least six times that evening Herold described for Paine the escape route across the city. Paine couldn't remember it. As they approached Lafayette Square the numbskull had to be told Dr. Verdi's name over and over; he kept forgetting it."

Does anyone know where Roscoe obtained any of this?

(04-05-2013 03:47 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  I think we covered this earlier, Maddie, but my point (and that of several others - including Mike Kauffman, whom I often disagree with) is that Herold was not an escort, but a point man to make sure that Powell got in the Seward door and then take off to see that Atzerodt and Booth were also accomplishing their deeds.

BTW: I will be seeing a relative of Atzerodt tomorrow when he brings a group on a Booth Tour. I first met him in 1983, and have only talked to him a few times over the years. I believe that George was his great-grand uncle -- however, don't quote me on that because I am lousy at genealogy and lineage.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't sure what you meant by Point Man. However, again, I'm not sure why this was even necessary? Surely, it would be just another complication and dead giveaway if things when wrong...which they did? I thought Booth trusted Powell to get the job done, why would Herold have to have this role?

Good points Maddie

If Powell didn't think highly about Herold, maybe Booth assigned Herold to be with Powell for Herold's benefit and not Powell's. When things didn't go right at Sewards, Herold panicked and deserted Powell and Powell had to get by on his own. (justifying Powell's low opinion of him?)

Maybe Booth's original plan was not to have Herold with him as he escaped into lower MD. Booth had been there before. Would he have even needed Herold had he not broken his leg?

(04-03-2013 02:11 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Many thanks to Art Loux for sending this interesting article. It comes from the Boston Daily Advertiser of July 8, 1865.

Art notes, "Shortly before his hanging Herold was quoted saying he “consented to see that Powell undertook his work” and then agreed to guide Booth and Powell through Maryland. See page 1 of attachments and the red marked paragraph. The reporter has garbled Herold’s words for certainly no one needed to “see” or assure Powell did his work. Whatever Herold's assignment it seems to have been with Powell. His sighting on 14th Street by stableman Fletcher is consistent with Herold coming from Seward’s house.

Also, the statement indicates Powell intended to go south with JWB rather than north to Baltimore."

HOw does anyone know that Herold was telling the truth here?

(04-05-2013 03:49 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  John, I was very curious to see what Roscoe had to say after I read your post. Here's a portion:

"To Herold, Paine doubtless seemed a backwoods moron. At least six times that evening Herold described for Paine the escape route across the city. Paine couldn't remember it. As they approached Lafayette Square the numbskull had to be told Dr. Verdi's name over and over; he kept forgetting it."

Does anyone know where Roscoe obtained any of this?

Roscoe's papers are in the Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Columbia University. They include "20th century clippings, brochures, and ephemera on this topic used as background data for Roscoe's life long research and writing on Lincoln's assassination."

The papers also include, "The Lincoln Assassination.: Research Files
Notes, photo reproductions, printed materials, and four audio cassettes" and the research files for "the Web of Conspiracy."

Here is a link to the Finding Aid.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eresourc...ml/Roscoe/

Thanks Linda, it looks like a fascinating collection. I probably will never get to look at the collection, but for those of you live closer, this may encourage you.

http://clio.cul.columbia.edu:7018/vwebv/...Id=4079278

Quote:"To Herold, Paine doubtless seemed a backwoods moron. At least six times that evening Herold described for Paine the escape route across the city. Paine couldn't remember it. As they approached Lafayette Square the numbskull had to be told Dr. Verdi's name over and over; he kept forgetting it."

Does anyone know where Roscoe obtained any of this?

How DO we know this? Was Roscoe there? Much as I love Roscoe's book (read it in one week and couldn't put it down, I remember) I question this statement. Powell was no backwoods moron - no numbskull. According to Gillette and others, he was somewhat educated and cultured. The fact that he had difficulty remembering a foreign name indicates to me that he was nervous - especially in lieu of his rather panicked behavior when within the house.

I'm like Betty, I love Roscoe's book - but I don't trust everything in it. In many cases (and I think the Herold/Powell issue is one), it is very likely that Roscoe did like many others and just copied/paraphrased what other authors had said, especially about Powell being a numbskull. Col. Mosby did not accept numbskulls in his unit!

Every one of us who express our opinions on this subject interject our own speculations into the story and usually do not have sound evidence to back up those opinions. Just say something enough times, and hopefully the majority of people will believe you. There's at least one book that I could name right now that bases about 75% of its text on just that premise. I do it all the time in trying to prove my point that Herold and Booth intended to go to Mudd's house all along, whether or not a broken leg necessitated it.

As for why a point man was needed: First, two sets of eyes converging on a target is better than one - especially in dim lights. Herold could be a calming influence on Powell just because he did know the layout of the land so well. And, this whole assassination plot depended on careful synchronization or timing of each murder. They all needed to be committed basically together. It is sort of like terrorism acts today -- set off car bombs in three different locations around town in order to split the police force sent to check out the situation. Herold was the man in charge of making sure that each assignment was carried out and which assassins needed to depart the city.

As for Booth needing Herold to get him through Southern Maryland - most definitely. We know of only three trips we can verify that he made into that territory, and some of those were via stagecoach. Those backroads are confusing now. You can just imagine what they were like in 1865. I can travel the Booth escape route with my eyes closed now, but I've been over the route at least 150 times over the past fifty years. Booth didn't have my advantage.

That's a good analogy with the terrorist tactics of placing bombs in different locations. Hitting multiple targets at once creates confusion.

After Booth bought the horse from Gardiner, he got lost returning to Washington and with Herold with him, they both got lost in the swamp. I wouldn't rely on my knowledge of three trips down there when I needed a quick escape. Booth also left his revolver on the stagecoach on one of those trips. I'm sure his mind was racing a mile a minute when he was down there trying to put things in order.

As I recall the early preparations for the escape from Washington, were changed by circumstances, on the night of the escape. Didn't Herold tell us that they planned to go south on the "Bumpy Oak Road"? The actual escape never got near the "Bumpy Oak Road". That's why everyone needed Herold. He knew his way around So. MD. How many of us known where the Bumpy Oak Road is? It's still there. (But stay clear if it is raining hard.)