Laurie -

Whatever happened to the book which was supposed to be published last year regarding JWB and the Canadian Cabinet in Montreal?

Anyone know?! It looked facinating....

I had pre-ordered it and received a notice this past summer that its publication had been delayed. I have no idea what has happened to it.

(11-27-2012 06:27 PM)Rsmyth Wrote:  John, I love the way you presented your case.

I agree Rich. John did a great job. I the book "I Saw...." All of the eyewitness account taken immediateley after are very contrary to any injury being evident. The later accounts, after it was presumed that JWB broke his leg in the leap, did accounts surface about Booth limping across the stage.

(11-27-2012 07:20 PM)L Verge Wrote:  All the points that everyone has made (and will continue to make, no doubt) are good ones. However, it still goes back to my question of "What does it matter where he broke his leg?" Are we really so desperate for something to focus on that we have to keep rehashing something that will very likely never be proven?

Since I heard of the horse theory several years before Mr. Kauffman's book was published, I must admit to being saturated with the topic. I guess that's why I appear so grumpy about it to the rest of you.

We're sorry Ms. Laurie
We're not going to have to scrape the gum of the seats again are we?

(11-27-2012 07:20 PM)L Verge Wrote:  All the points that everyone has made (and will continue to make, no doubt) are good ones. However, it still goes back to my question of "What does it matter where he broke his leg?" .....

I am much more interested in topics like: .... Jerry's theory on Johnson's involvement?

Well speaking for Jerry's theory, where he broke his leg is very important because I don't believe Booth ever meant to go South. The broken leg, after he crossed the bridge, changed his escape route.

For those who in the stage leap causing the break - I have a question. How do you explain the wounds on the horse? Cobb never mentions them and they are consistent with a fall. Did the horse fall on his own without a rider or did the horse self inflict the wounds on himself just to cast doubt on Booth's claim?

Carefull Jerry or she'll make you clean all the ashtrays in the teachers lounge.

Nope. I'm making all of you horsey fall people stay after school and clean erasers and chalk boards!

I think it's possible that the horse may have tripped somewhere along the route to Surrattsville because I tend to trust Davey's report of having to help Booth back onto the other horse. OR, they may have had to switch horses because Booth's frisky one was really aggravating his leg.

I also grew up on Southern Maryland roads in the 1950s that still had no shoulders to them, and bushes would swipe the sides of our cars if we came too close to the outside of the asphalt. I can see where a low-hanging limb could inflict a wound. I can also see where Booth's obvious pain and shifting in the saddle might cause the horse to have an unsteady gait and trip.

I am not totally ruling out the horse falling. I'm doubting that it caused the broken leg.

Jerry, as you know, I will never agree with you on Booth not wanting to go south. Therefore, no comment...

(11-27-2012 06:08 PM)John E. Wrote:  Just a quick question: Why would Booth lie about HOW he broke his leg to Lloyd when he flat out told him he killed the President ? There was no reason to hide the truth at this point.

I am not as well informed as the rest of you on the assassination, but it seems to me plausible that Booth and Herold created the story of the horse falling as part of their explanation for the obvious distress Booth was in. They also created aliases and other circumstances to explain their situation while seeking aide along their escape.

Why would Booth and Herold relay their horse falling story to LLoyd while later boasting that they killed the President?

They arrive at Surratt's Tavern to collect their guns. Herold goes to the door because Booth is in too much pain to dismount. Herold is in a position where he has to offer an explanation. Herold tells Lloyd that his friend's horse fell on him. At this point the truth is a much more complicated story and would require further explanation. They are in a hurry. They stick to their story for simplicity's sake. They get the gun and the glasses and some whiskey and as they depart Booth then decides to boast of the assassination. The real explanation for the broken leg is no longer needed at this point. Lloyd then tells his story of the visit to the investigators and relays Herold's story of the horse falling on his injured friend.

(11-27-2012 08:21 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I am not totally ruling out the horse falling. I'm doubting that it caused the broken leg.

So you're saying the horse probably fell but Booth's leg could not possibly have been under it because ...... it was already broken?

(Hey guys, I found a bottle of Gin in teacher's bottom drawer!)

Is the statement of John Lloyd that he was told the break came from a horse falling online?

Laurie-As you know,figuring out the who the "NY Crowd"was, has become a difficult task.Jerry and I have reached a conclusion-that it was a "Copperhead-NYState Crowd."It would take a very skilled professional researcher to find exactly who they were.

(11-28-2012 05:56 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Is the statement of John Lloyd that he was told the break came from a horse falling online?

I took a screenshot of the reference for you Roger. I have a digital copy of The Evidence on Google Play.

(11-28-2012 05:56 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Is the statement of John Lloyd that he was told the break came from a horse falling online?

I've never heard of a horse falling online before

I took a screenshot of the reference for you Roger. I have a digital copy of The Evidence on Google Play.


[/quote]

Although Lloyd's recollection could reasonably be viewed as solid evidence that the horse fall story may be true; it is plausible, in my mind, that the story was a fabrication at the point in the conversation that it was relayed to Lloyd and that then later in the conversation, just prior to riding off, Booth boasts of the assassination.

Jerry,

Now that I'm out of my gin-indused stupor, my response to your statement phrased as a question is: I believe that the leg was broken at Ford's Theatre; that Booth's horse may have fallen between the Navy Yard Bridge and Surrattsville; and if it did, it may have caused further damage to the leg. To quote Rhett Butler, however, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a 'darn!'"

BTW: I would never hide gin anywhere. Can't stand the stuff - tastes like perfume - makes me sick! I'm a Jack & Ginger type of girl.

---

Ref. the digital copy from The Evidence: There are discrepancies with what the printed version of Pitman has said over the years. This is the direct testimony in John Lloyd's time on the stand:

"Just about midnight on Friday..." NOTE: not "1:00 in the morning" as printed above. Somewhere I have seen reference to Lloyd saying that the clock had been striking midnight when Herold pounded on the door.

"I do not think they remained over five minutes. They only took one of the carbines. Booth said he could not take his, because his leg was broken." NOTE: No mention of how or when the leg was broken.

Lloyd went on to describe the horse as seen in the moonlight: "The man whose leg was broken was on a light-colored horse; I supposed it to be a gray horse in the moonlight. It was a large horse, I suppose some sixteen hands high; the other, ridden by Herold, was a bay and not so large." NOTE: No mention of an injury to either horse.

Next question: Which horse would Booth have been riding when his injury supposedly occurred? We know that he was riding the spirited bay mare when he left Ford's, however, he's on the other horse when he arrives at Surrattsville, and that is the horse that was tended to at Mudd's and supposedly injured. Therefore, one must assume that Booth had already changed horses before "the fall" came in order for the large horse to be injured. That would have made the wound to the horse fairly fresh and more noticeable to Lloyd, I would think. I'm now going back to my Jack & Ginger (carefully hidden in my desk drawer at Surratt House).