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Just Trivia
12-21-2020, 01:18 PM
Post: #91
RE: Just Trivia
John Hay?

Best
Rob

Abraham Lincoln in the only man, dead or alive, with whom I could have spent five years without one hour of boredom.
--Ida M. Tarbell

I want the respect of intelligent men, but I will choose for myself the intelligent.
--Carl Sandburg
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12-21-2020, 01:41 PM
Post: #92
RE: Just Trivia
Logical guess, Rob, but it's not Hay.
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12-21-2020, 06:49 PM
Post: #93
RE: Just Trivia
Elizabeth Keckley?

“The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that” Robert Burns
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12-21-2020, 07:02 PM
Post: #94
RE: Just Trivia
William Stoddard?

Bob
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12-22-2020, 04:51 AM
Post: #95
RE: Just Trivia
Michael and Bob, like Rob's guess, those are sure logical names, but neither is the correct one.
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12-22-2020, 06:32 AM
Post: #96
RE: Just Trivia
William Crook ?

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
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12-22-2020, 07:00 AM
Post: #97
RE: Just Trivia
Yes, Gene! Indeed it was the plainclothes police officer who was a bodyguard to the President. Perhaps William H. Crook is most known for his reminiscence that Lincoln said "Goodbye, Crook" rather than the normal "Good night, Crook" as the President departed for the theater on April 14, 1865. Crook recalled: "It was the first time that he neglected to say 'Good Night' to me and it was the only time that he ever said 'Good-bye'. I thought of it at that moment and, a few hours later, when the news flashed over Washington that he had been shot, his last words were so burned into my being that they can never be forgotten."

(I will note that some historians feel Crook's memories fall more into the myth category than fact category.)
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12-22-2020, 07:47 AM
Post: #98
RE: Just Trivia
(12-22-2020 07:00 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Yes, Gene! Indeed it was the plainclothes police officer who was a bodyguard to the President. Perhaps William H. Crook is most known for his reminiscence that Lincoln said "Goodbye, Crook" rather than the normal "Good night, Crook" as the President departed for the theater on April 14, 1865. Crook recalled: "It was the first time that he neglected to say 'Good Night' to me and it was the only time that he ever said 'Good-bye'. I thought of it at that moment and, a few hours later, when the news flashed over Washington that he had been shot, his last words were so burned into my being that they can never be forgotten."

(I will note that some historians feel Crook's memories fall more into the myth category than fact category.)

Roger, as I recall, on the night of President Lincoln's assassination, William Crook was no longer serving as President Lincoln's bodyguard. Mary Lincoln had fired someone in the White House. Crook applied for and received the promotion and so was no longer serving as the President's bodyguard.

I believe that I read on the night of the assassination, he had asked his replacement as bodyguard if he had his gun before the President departed for the theater. Mr. William Crook, in his words, appeared to be a very conscientious person.

I have wondered that if Crook had been the bodyguard for President Lincoln that fateful night, the end of the "play" that night might have been different. But, now, you call into question the credibility of Crook's statements with your parenthetical note: "(I will note that some historians feel Crook's memories fall more into the myth category than fact category.)"

Wasn't Crook the kind man that stayed with Tad that night after Tad learned of his father's death?

"So very difficult a matter is it to trace and find out the truth of anything by history." -- Plutarch
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12-22-2020, 08:07 AM
Post: #99
RE: Just Trivia
Yes, Crook was not the bodyguard at the theater (although he was one of several policemen assigned to White House duty). Rather it was John F. Parker, another White House guard, who went to Ford's. Indeed Crook was critical of the way Parker handled his duties.

It was White House policeman/doorman, Tom Pendel, who comforted Tad back at the White House after Booth shot the President. Earlier Tad was with Alphonso Donn, another of the group of Metropolitan Washington police officers assigned to the White House, at Grover's Theatre watching Aladdin or The Wonderful Lamp.

As I write this my mind is blank regarding Mrs. Lincoln firing someone and Crook getting a promotion. Can you kindly expound on that and maybe my memory will come back. Thanks.

In the fall of 1864 it was decided that a detail of the Washington Metropolitan Police force would be assigned to protect the President. This was at the request of Ward Hill Lamon, United States Marshall for the District of Columbia and a close friend of Lincoln's. Lamon had become increasingly fearful for the President's life. On November 3, 1864, the initial detail was composed of John R. Cronin, Alphonso Donn, Thomas F. Pendel, and Alexander (or Andrew) C. Smith. Changes were occasionally made, although the detail was never more than 5 officers at any one time. Other officers who served in the detail included William S. Lewis, William H. Crook, George W. McElfresh, Thomas T. Hurdle, Joseph Shelton, John F. Parker, and D. Hopkins. Parker was assigned to the detail sometime between late February and early April, 1865.

Tom Pendel wrote, "Previous to starting for the theatre, I said to John Parker, who had taken my place, to accompany Mr. Lincoln, "John, are you prepared?" I meant by this to ask if he had his revolver and everything all ready to protect the President in case of an assault. Alfonso Donn, my old companion at the door, spoke up and said, "Oh, Tommy, there is no' danger." I said, "Donn, you don't know what
might happen." Because I had traveled a good deal in my life, and had seen much of human nature, I said, "Parker, now you start down to the theatre, to be ready for the President when he reaches there. And you see him safe inside." He started off immediately, and did see Mr. Lincoln all safe inside the theatre, and Mrs. Lincoln, Major Rathbone and Miss Harris also reached the building in safety."
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12-22-2020, 09:19 AM (This post was last modified: 12-22-2020 09:35 AM by David Lockmiller.)
Post: #100
RE: Just Trivia
(12-22-2020 08:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Yes, Crook was not the bodyguard at the theater (although he was one of several policemen assigned to White House duty). Rather it was John F. Parker, another White House guard, who went to Ford's. Indeed Crook was critical of the way Parker handled his duties.

It was White House policeman/doorman, Tom Pendel, who comforted Tad back at the White House after Booth shot the President. Earlier Tad was with Alphonso Donn, another of the group of Metropolitan Washington police officers assigned to the White House, at Grover's Theatre watching Aladdin or The Wonderful Lamp.

As I write this my mind is blank regarding Mrs. Lincoln firing someone and Crook getting a promotion. Can you kindly expound on that and maybe my memory will come back. Thanks.

In the fall of 1864 it was decided that a detail of the Washington Metropolitan Police force would be assigned to protect the President. This was at the request of Ward Hill Lamon, United States Marshall for the District of Columbia and a close friend of Lincoln's. Lamon had become increasingly fearful for the President's life. On November 3, 1864, the initial detail was composed of John R. Cronin, Alphonso Donn, Thomas F. Pendel, and Alexander (or Andrew) C. Smith. Changes were occasionally made, although the detail was never more than 5 officers at any one time. Other officers who served in the detail included William S. Lewis, William H. Crook, George W. McElfresh, Thomas T. Hurdle, Joseph Shelton, John F. Parker, and D. Hopkins. Parker was assigned to the detail sometime between late February and early April, 1865.

Tom Pendel wrote, "Previous to starting for the theatre, I said to John Parker, who had taken my place, to accompany Mr. Lincoln, "John, are you prepared?" I meant by this to ask if he had his revolver and everything all ready to protect the President in case of an assault. Alfonso Donn, my old companion at the door, spoke up and said, "Oh, Tommy, there is no' danger." I said, "Donn, you don't know what
might happen." Because I had traveled a good deal in my life, and had seen much of human nature, I said, "Parker, now you start down to the theatre, to be ready for the President when he reaches there. And you see him safe inside." He started off immediately, and did see Mr. Lincoln all safe inside the theatre, and Mrs. Lincoln, Major Rathbone and Miss Harris also reached the building in safety."

You are absolutely right, Roger. I got the two names confused.

I could not recall the name that I was seeking. I actually wanted to find the quote which you posted: ""John, are you prepared?" I meant by this to ask if he had his revolver and everything all ready to protect the President in case of an assault."

I am really glad to find out about my mistake. Thank you, Roger. I was really disheartened to find out that Lincoln scholars had a very low opinion of Pendel's (my mistake) credibility. Roger wrote: "(I will note that some historians feel Crook's memories fall more into the myth category than fact category.)"

As I said, I wondered what would have happened if the very conscientious Pendel had been President Lincoln's bodyguard that night. [Parker] "did see Mr. Lincoln all safe inside the theatre, and Mrs. Lincoln, Major Rathbone and Miss Harris also reached the building in safety." Pendel might have stayed with President Lincoln that night outside the door in the hallway. And, the initial confrontation might have been between Pendel and John Wilkes Booth.

In doing research, I found this post by Laurie and my response:

RE: S.O.S
(11-04-2019 09:46 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:
(11-04-2019 08:23 PM)L Verge Wrote:
Help - I may need a short version of the story that I have heard over the years of Mr. Lincoln tricking a companion into eating a persimmon that had not been sweetened by a hard frost. I'm doing a Facebook snippet on a 19th-century Persimmon Pudding recipe and an accompanying Persimmon Beer one. If there is space, I would like to include the Lincoln legend.

Laurie, you may be thinking of the following story:

On one occasion, President Lincoln, when riding near the Soldiers’ Home, said to his footman, named Charles Forbes, who had but recently come from Ireland, “What kind of fruit do you have in Ireland, Charles?” To which Charles replied, “Mr. President, we have a good many kinds of fruit: gooseberries, pears, apples, and the like.” The president then asked, “Have you tasted any of our American fruits?”

Charles said he had not, and the president told Burke, the coachman, to drive under a persimmon tree by the roadside. Standing up in the open carriage, he pulled off some of the green (unripe) fruit, giving some of it to Burke and some to Charles, with the advice that the latter try some of it. Charles, taking some of the green fruit in his hand, commenced to eat, when to his astonishment he found that he could hardly open his mouth. Trying his best to spit it out, he yelled, “Mr. President, I am poisoned! I am poisoned!” Mr. Lincoln fairly fell back in his carriage and rolled with laughter.

Story source is from "Lincoln and the Irish: The Untold Story of How the Irish Helped Abraham Lincoln . . .” by Niall O’Dowd

Laurie, you better be careful about using this source. This same story was also printed on page 650 of "Lincoln Talks, A Biography in Anecdote," which itself has been proven to be an unreliable source for Lincoln stories. Perhaps Niall O'Dowd used this Emanuel Hertz story for his book quoted above.

L Verge Wrote:
Thank you, David, this is just what I was looking for -- and I already planned on introducing it as one of many anecdotes about Lincoln that may or may not be true.

And, then, Dave Taylor provided confirming information with the name Pendel as the source:

This story is true. Dave Taylor wrote in his post (while I was working on mine):

"The story comes from Thomas Pendel's book, Thirty Six Years in the White House. The unfortunate gentleman tricked by Lincoln is none other than Charles Forbes who later sat outside the Presidential box at Ford's Theatre."

Thank you, Dave Taylor, for providing a link to this book passage in your post. On the night of Lincoln's assassination, it was Thomas Pendel who took care of Tad after receiving the news of his father's death (touching to read).

"So very difficult a matter is it to trace and find out the truth of anything by history." -- Plutarch
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12-22-2020, 09:52 AM
Post: #101
RE: Just Trivia
Thanks, David. Here is what Tom Pendel wrote concerning Tad that sad night:

"...when poor little Tad returned from the National Theatre and entered through the east door of the basement of the White House. He came up the stairway and ran to me, while I was in the main vestibule, standing at the window, and before he got to me he burst out crying, "O Tom Pen! Tom Pen! They have killed papa dead. They've killed papa dead" and burst out crying again.

I put my arm around him and drew him up to me, and tried to pacify him as best I could. I tried to divert his attention to other things, but every now and then he would burst out crying again, and repeat over and over, "Oh, they've killed papa dead! They've killed papa dead!"

At nearly twelve o'clock that night I got Tad somewhat pacified, and took him into the President's room, which is in the southwest portion of the building. I turned down the cover of his little bed, and he undressed and got in. I covered him up and laid down beside him, put my arm around him, and talked to him until he fell into a sound sleep."
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12-22-2020, 10:32 AM
Post: #102
RE: Just Trivia
(12-22-2020 08:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  As I write this my mind is blank regarding Mrs. Lincoln firing someone and Crook getting a promotion. Can you kindly expound on that and maybe my memory will come back. Thanks.

Sorry, again, it was Pendel that got the promotion and not Crook. That was my mistake in confusing the two names.

In Thomas Pendel's book, Thirty-six Years in the White House, in the chapter titled "Under President Lincoln," at pages 37-39, it reads:

On Thursday evening, December 29, 1864, Mrs. Lincoln had one or two notices written to be sent down to the daily papers in regard to a New Year reception she would hold. She wanted them published at once. She handed them to Edward McManus, the doorkeeper of the White House, with instructions to take them to the local papers at once. This he failed to do. Probably a half or three-quarters of an hour passed before Mrs. Lincoln had occasion to come through the main corridor again. When she did so, she approached Edward and asked him about the notices. "Why, Edward," she said, "I told you to take them to the newspaper offices at once. Now, this is the last duty you will ever perform in the White House." He treated this statement very lightly, and smiled a sickly kind of smile. But it was indeed his last day.

Next morning early Mrs. Lincoln sent for me, saying she wanted to see me in the private part of the house. When I went up there she told me she wanted me to resign my position and take charge of the front door — to take the place of Edward McManus. I told her I could not do this unless I was regularly appointed to the duty. She told me to go up to the Capitol and see Mr. French, the Commissioner of Public Buildings and Grounds, and tell him to make out my appointment as doorkeeper of the White House.

I went to see Mr. French, but he declared that this appointment was not in his power to make, as it was made directly by the President. So I returned, and in the course of the day I had an opportunity to speak to the President. I said, "Mr. President, would you have any objection to my taking the place of Edward McManus?"

He said, "None at all."

That evening, after nightfall, on Saturday, it being the last day of the week, month and the year of 1864, I was up near the door of the President's office when little Tad came along and said, "Tom Pen, give me that paper. Come on in now to papa's room."

The President was sitting at the table facing the east. Tad said, "Papa, dear, do me a favor?" Out he handed my appointment. "Sign this for Tom Pendel." He laid it down on the table, and the President took up his pen and endorsed the appointment. And that appointment holds good to this day.

On the fourteenth day of April, 1865, in the evening, just previous to the time when the President and Mrs. Lincoln were going to the theatre . . . .

"So very difficult a matter is it to trace and find out the truth of anything by history." -- Plutarch
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