We have no idea whether Lincoln suffered from syphilis.

We do know that syphilis affected a significant number of the world's population during his lifetime. The actual rate is difficult to identify. Doctors were fearful of telling wives that they were suffering from syphilis ( it was normally the husbands that were paying the medical bills). They were reluctant to state a cause of death as being syphilis.

I see one study in the UK for pre-WW1 males has the rate as being 7.8%
https://academic.oup.com/shm/article/27/3/508/1680054

All the above comment is aimed at making the point that it would be reasonable for Lincoln to concerned as to whether he had contracted syphilis before marriage. Obviously, this would have required sexual activity ... and we have no proof that he was not a virgin when he first met Mary.

A knee-jerk comment would be to assert that he was a man with the same natural urges as most other men at that time and it would have been natural for him to be sexually active. However, he was teetotal (I'm being serious) so he was able to resist peer pressure and he could have controlled his desires.
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...tongue.gif
It seems to me (and Ok I have no proof) that he would have had concerns about syphilis and the possibility of him having it. Continuing this line of surmising, it would cause a huge amount of concern for him pre-marriage and would explain his depression and peculiar behaviour.

Then I move on to his letter to Dr Drake asking for advice. He read this to his friend Speed, apparently, but (and I think it significant) he omitted a portion.

In Pox: Genius, Madness, And The Mysteries Of Syphilis
By Deborah Hayden, it is stated that William Herndon wrote that Lincoln told him that he'd contracted syphilis in 1835 or 36. Gore Vidal believed this to be true and said so on US Tv .

Having written all that I am now thinking that you've probably already discussed the issue on the forum ... I did search but couldnt find anything.

This subject has come up before, but we have never looked at it in detail because there didn't seem to be any evidence to discuss, only conjecture.

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...s#pid11221
scroll down to post #38 - 45

(04-02-2019 05:21 AM)AussieMick Wrote:  However, he was teetotal (I'm being serious) so he was able to resist peer pressure and he could have controlled his desires.

Michael, your comment reminded me of the following alleged incident; it may be apocryphal. I do not know the source (possibly Herndon or Speed?). But I have definitely seen the story in books.

"Lincoln visited a prostitute. He was still a poor man at this point in life. When he made it in and found out that the night would cost him $5.00, he had to admit that he only had $3.00.

"I’ll trust you, Mr. Lincoln, for $2.00," the prostitute tried to reassure him. But Lincoln wouldn’t do it.

"I do not wish to go on credit,” Lincoln said. "I’m poor, and I don’t know where my next dollar will come from, and I cannot afford to cheat you."

Not wanting to waste the prostitute’s time, Lincoln tried to give her the $3.00 he had. But she wouldn’t take it. He left, refusing to accept her services if he couldn't pay an honest rate.

As he walked out, the prostitute said, "You are the most conscientious man I ever saw."

I believe the story comes from Speed and was related to Herndon by Speed for his book, or so it was claimed.

Thanks, Gust.

Here's a little more context to Herndon's account:

https://books.google.com/books?id=KCM50u...22&f=false

One thing I've noticed from reading Ida Tarbell's papers is how promiscuous people on the frontier were. The number of illegitimate people in Lincoln's family alone is testament to that fact. So I don't have any issue accepting that not only was Lincoln a sexual being before marriage, his fear of contracting syphilis was legitimate. Again, if one looks at the criticism that Herndon received, it's usually not that he was incorrect, but that he brought out things that were better left unwritten. That Lincoln fathered no illegitimate children would almost seem a miracle.

Best
Rob

(04-02-2019 05:09 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  One thing I've noticed from reading Ida Tarbell's papers is how promiscuous people on the frontier were. The number of illegitimate people in Lincoln's family alone is testament to that fact. So I don't have any issue accepting that not only was Lincoln a sexual being before marriage, his fear of contracting syphilis was legitimate. Again, if one looks at the criticism that Herndon received, it's usually not that he was incorrect, but that he brought out things that were better left unwritten. That Lincoln fathered no illegitimate children would almost seem a miracle.

Best
Rob

Rob: agree totally with your post. No reason to assume that Lincoln was a virgin before marriage.

Perhaps I am being a little naive, but I think there's a chance that Mary Todd was Abraham's "first." To me he seemed awkward and shy around girls, almost a little scared of them. He seemed generally more comfortable around older women. At mixed gatherings, I think he was the type to go off with the guys and tell jokes and talk politics. It is just hard for me to view him approaching a house of prostitution and knocking on the door even if he had plenty of money. I do not think he necessarily thought of it as saving himself for marriage, but I think it's possible it happened that way because of the type of person he was. Maybe the odds are that Mary was not his first, but I do think it's not impossible that she was his first.

Roger,

Certainly it is not impossible that Lincoln might have been a virgin, but I think it's unlikely. There seems to be anecdotal evidence that he could seriously flirt with young women and he did ask Speed if Speed knew where he could "get some." To be honest, I think it's generally more in character that Lincoln could have visited prostitutes with his shyness. After all, it's more a business transaction than an attempt to get to know someone deep enough to form a romantic attachment. I can't sit here and say that Lincoln was a weekly customer somewhere (there is no evidence that I'm familiar with to suggest that), but I find it difficult to accept that someone under the thumb of a strict Baptist father might not find it the ultimate in rebellion to "sow his wild oats" once he was out on his own in New Salem. It is also quite possible that after Lincoln believed himself to have syphilis he might have curtailed his visits out of guilt.

So, do you think Herndon was lying?

Best
Rob

Herndon certainly stretched the truth about the character of Thomas Lincoln, Abraham's relationship with Mary, and his severe depression at the death of Ann Rutledge. Some speculate he did it to show the obstacles Lincoln had overcome in his life. Others have mentioned that Herndon felt he new Lincoln better than anyone else, even better than Lincoln knew himself.

So what is the purpose in Herndon relating this story?
That Lincoln was tempted, but overcame the temptation, maybe embarrassed about the whole incident ?
That Lincoln was ultimately an honorable man?
Even as a young man, especially as a state representative, Lincoln was concerned about his image and reputation. Certainly Lincoln knew the consequences of such a relationship. People may have been promiscuous, but it seems to be more frowned upon than it is today. For Lincoln, as a young ambitious attorney, it could be a career killer.

Yes, the incident is possible, but there is something about this whole story that just doesn't seem to fit.

Gene,

I wonder if the lens one views Lincoln with makes a difference in accepting or rejecting this story? Personally, I've never accepted the "scrubbed and sanitized for your protection" version of Lincoln. After all, this is the frontier we're talking about. Ida Tarbell, while accepting its warts, tried to sanitize the time for Lincoln by making it into a rough-hewn paradise full of adventure for a young boy. Even Lincoln himself disputed that by his actions of getting out as soon as he could. I think she seriously overreached in doing so.

As for Herndon, I don't agree that he stretched the truth as you say. Thomas Lincoln may not have been shiftless, but he certainly wasn't the type of man Lincoln modeled himself after. I cannot dispute that Herndon's personal distaste for Mary colored his presentation, but neither can one dispute that Lincoln's home life was not idyllic. And as for Ann Rutledge, I've always believed, especially after the Menard Axis story appeared years BEFORE Herndon's lecture, that he pretty much got Lincoln's reaction correct (although as I've previously stated I don't believe Ann was the only woman Lincoln ever loved).

As for Lincoln's reputation, my guess is that if Lincoln ever utilized prostitutes, it was during his time in New Salem. At that point, he really didn't have much of a reputation to protect. Plus, given that his neighbors (both married and single) likely visited prostitutes themselves, there would have been little if any scandal.

Lincoln was a product of the frontier, for all the good and the bad that entails. Let me add, however, that once he was serious about his law and political careers, his concern for his reputation certainly was alive in his mind, hence his reply to Peter Cartwright as to the charges of being an infidel.

Best
Rob

No doubt the lens I view Lincoln through makes a difference.
While the frontier was rough and tumble, and Lincoln was a product of the frontier, he was also pretty much an abstainer of alcohol & tobacco, which was uncommon for the times.
So.... abstaining from back alley relationships, who knows, but it's conjecture and may not be that unlikely.

I personally think Thomas Lincoln was somewhat disappointed his son did not want the farm and that strained the relationship.
Thomas didn't have that advantage in life, and probably didn't understand why his only living offspring was rejecting this. Abraham had put a lot of sweat equity into the farm.
I think Herndon miss characterized Thomas. Whether he meant to or not, I think Abraham did model himself after Thomas in certain areas of moral values & character.

We have some differences of opinion on some aspects, but that's how we learn and makes this forum enjoyable.

(04-03-2019 10:27 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  So, do you think Herndon was lying?
Best
Rob

Offhand, I can only think of 2 stories. The first is where Lincoln allegedly contracted syphilis, apparently from a prostitute, "during a devilish passion" in Beardstown, Illinois. This was c. 1835. I just cannot believe Herndon on this. Sure, it could have happened, but it just doesn't sound like Lincoln to me. As far as the story of Lincoln walking out on the prostitute because he was short the money...I have trouble believing that one, too. It sounds more like a joke Lincoln might tell rather than a truthful occurrence.

But perhaps my greatest reason for thinking as I do is Lincoln's behavior on the circuit. He was away from home nearly half the year (roughly 3 months at a time), and he apparently did not go home during breaks like the other circuit riders did. And there is no evidence whatsoever (that I know of) that Lincoln ever visited a house of prostitution. He sure had the opportunity. Yes, he was married at that time, but for men whose lifestyle includes visiting prostitutes, this is often no barrier. IMO, Lincoln's lifestyle did not include visits to prostitutes even if it was a common practice on the frontier.

As for Lincoln's reputation at New Salem I agree he had not yet developed much to protect. Yet others tried to protect it for him. Remember Samuel Hill apparently burned Lincoln's book on infidelity. Is there a single New Salem resident who ever said Lincoln visited prostitutes?

Just my opinion, Rob.

I find it impossible to argue with anything in the above posts.
In particular "Is there a single New Salem resident who ever said Lincoln visited prostitutes?" . Im sure it wasnt something that people discussed or even gossiped about at the time ... but there would, I think, have been snide comments after he became candidate and elected President and later after the assassination.

Its possible that he contracted syphilis from Anne Rutledge. We know that she had been engaged to John McNamar. Obviously we have no idea of any sexual activity between any of them.

Another significant point is that we can be fairly certain that after becoming President, Lincoln was faithful to Mary. Men in power, I believe, are often tempted and many succumb. But if he wasnt faithful, then I'm certain we'd know about.

What about when he was on 'law circuit' before Presidency? Yes, perhaps he visited prostitutes. But, again, we really only have Herndon's comments ... nobody else's (to my knowledge).
I'd add that its entirely possible that Lincoln told Herndon a risque story that he (Lincoln) thought that Herndon would enjoy ... it wouldnt be the first time that a man has told another man about sexual exploits which didnt happen.

The main question for me is "Did Lincoln believe that he might have syphilis?" And I think it is likely (nothing stronger) that the answer is "yes". I base that on his peculiar behaviour before marriage to Mary. Also his letter to Dr Drake which he read to Speed but omitted (!) a section . I must admit to finding this a very odd sequence of events ... why would anybody read/tell (even a very good friend) about the contents of a letter to a doctor?

Finally, I'd point out the knowledge of syphilis in the 1840s would have been fairly small. There were I think rumours as to what, apart from direct sex, caused it. Shaking hands with an infected person or sleeping in a bed that had been recently vacated by a person who had syphilis, for example. The symptoms and potential effects would have been nightmares for many.