(01-31-2018 01:43 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Kerry, I'm afraid I don't really get that post. What does "she was not hurried easily into vice" mean?

In context, that she wasn't easily pressured into having sex. Vice basically means sin -- the opposite of virtue.

(01-30-2018 06:22 PM)kerry Wrote:  Caroline Heally Dall wrote Herndon told her Mary was the most sensual woman he ever knew, but she was not hurried easily into vice, if I'm reading her handwriting correctly. I requested her papers, which are not published - I'm not sure I can post that, but it is only a snippet. Sounds suspiciously like he tried and failed...

Or that he knew of other men who had tried and failed.

(01-31-2018 06:14 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 01:43 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Kerry, I'm afraid I don't really get that post. What does "she was not hurried easily into vice" mean?

In context, that she wasn't easily pressured into having sex. Vice basically means sin -- the opposite of virtue.

Thanks for explaining, Kerry.

---

[Vice is an amazing homonym btw - if it is...sin, workshop tool and deputy headmaster...or all the same? ]

(01-31-2018 10:15 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 06:14 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 01:43 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Kerry, I'm afraid I don't really get that post. What does "she was not hurried easily into vice" mean?

In context, that she wasn't easily pressured into having sex. Vice basically means sin -- the opposite of virtue.

Thanks for explaining, Kerry.

---

[Vice is an amazing homonym btw - if it is...sin, workshop tool and deputy headmaster...or all the same? ]

Vice can be used like in Vice Principal, which is probably what a deputy headmaster is. Not sure about the tool.

I should be sure about the tool (I think "vice" is rather Be and "vise" AE). At least it was in the car mechanics' textbooks...
https://www.tradetools.com/product-range...bench-vice

PS: The point I was trying to make is the question whether vice (tool) and vice (principal) were a homonym or a synonyms (which my last vice principal would easily have proven...)

Eva - this is my way of explanation: Vice and Vise are homonyms because they sound alike, though spelled differently. Generally, both are nouns, with "vice" meaning immoral behavior and "vise" referring to the tool that holds things together (usually while undergoing repairs).

However, "vice" can also be an adjective (I think) or maybe a compound designation for a deputy who works directly under the official in charge (vice principal, viceroy).

I have sometimes seen "vise" turned into a verb by adding "ing" so that it becomes the action part of holding things together.

I married a vice principal, so I can agree with your assessment of your former employer (I suspect).

(02-01-2018 03:25 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Eva - this is my way of explanation: Vice and Vise are homonyms because they sound alike, though spelled differently.

In the US spelled differently - they are spelled the same in BE (hence homonyms).
From my Oxford English Dictionary and another dictionary:
       

(02-01-2018 05:18 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 03:25 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Eva - this is my way of explanation: Vice and Vise are homonyms because they sound alike, though spelled differently.

In the US spelled differently - they are spelled the same in BE (hence homonyms).
From my Oxford English Dictionary and another dictionary:

I had responded with what I had been taught and always used as far as vise as a tool. I just consulted Merriam-Webster, and they agreed with me as did Dictionary.com. I don't know what else to say other than to get back to the original posting regarding Mary Lincoln's virtue.

Yes, Merriam Webster is an American dictionary, OED is an Oxford English dictionary. Vice is the Oxford English (BE) spelling.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/vice

(02-01-2018 06:48 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I don't know what else to say other than to get back to the original posting regarding Mary Lincoln's virtue.

Here is a paragraph from Michael Burlingame's The Inner World of Abraham Lincoln:

"Other sources suggest that Mary Lincoln may have been unfaithful. The White House gardener, John Watt, told a journalist in 1867 that "Mrs. Lincoln's relations with certain men were indecently improper." 166 Edward McManus, doorkeeper at the White House, evidently made a similar allegation. 167 Oswald Garrison Villard claimed that Robert Todd Lincoln 'systematically bought up any books that reflected [poorly] on Mrs. Lincoln,' including one by 'the Hungarian adventurer who nearly succeeded in eloping with Mrs. Lincoln from the White House.' 168 In a letter to her confidant Abram Wakeman, Mary Lincoln purportedly wrote, 'I have taken your excellent advice and decided not to leave my husband while he is in the White House.' 169 Sam ward, a knowledgeable Washington insider known as 'King of the Lobby,' suggested there was something unsavory in the relationship between Mary Lincoln and 'Dennison,' presumably either William Dennison, Lincoln's postmaster general in New York in 1864 and 1865, or George Dennison, naval officer in the New York Custom House." 170

Burlingame also suggests Mary Lincoln may have had an affair with William S. Wood (Commissioner of Public Buildings). Janis Cooke Newman, also suggests this (affair with Wood) in her book (which is historical fiction).

166 - George W. Adams to [David Goodman]Croly, Washington, 7 Oct. 1867, Manton Marble, MSS, DLC.

167 - McManus, fired by Mary Lincoln for obscure reasons in January 1865, apparently told Thurlow Weed that she was romantically linked with a man other than her husband. Mary Todd Lincoln to Abram Wakeman, Washington, 20 Feb. [1865], in Turner and Turner, MTL, 202.

168 - Villard to Isaac Markens, New York, 26 March 1927, Lincoln Collection, RPB. The identity of this Hungarian adventurer is unknown. Villard may have been thinking of Wikoff, who was definitely an adventurer but not of Hungarian origin.

169 - Letter to Wakeman seen by Wakeman's daughter, who described it to her daughter, Elizabeth M. Alexanderson of Englewood, N.J., Newark Star, 3 March, 1951. No such document exists in Mary Lincoln's published letters.

170 - Ward to S.L.M. Barlow, Washington, 21 Nov. [1864?], Barlow MSS, CSmH.

Personally, I am a non-believer in all of this. My opinion is that Mary was totally faithful to her husband, and he was the same to her.

Mine too. I think that while Mary might have pushed the boundaries of propriety in her associations with men, thereby leaving herself open to gossip, she never strayed sexually. (The "Letter to Wakeman seen by Wakeman's daughter, who described it to her daughter, Elizabeth M. Alexanderson" reminds me of the old children's game of "Telephone.")

Is there any mention of this gossip in Justin and Linda Levitt Turner's work on Mary?

(02-02-2018 12:45 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Is there any mention of this gossip in Justin and Linda Levitt Turner's work on Mary?

Not that I recall. I do not remember ever reading anything remotely close to that Burlingame paragraph (posted above) in any other book I own.

(02-02-2018 01:18 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(02-02-2018 12:45 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Is there any mention of this gossip in Justin and Linda Levitt Turner's work on Mary?

Not that I recall. I do not remember ever reading anything remotely close to that Burlingame paragraph (posted above) in any other book I own.

Unfortunately, it is so typical of his "take" on most things related to the reputation of Mary Lincoln in general.