How would you plant land mines at the White House lawn and have no one catch you?

Why the White House lawn?
It's not like Lincoln spent a lot of time on the lawn.

I've got to pull out my copy of Come Retribution.
This makes about as much sense to me as trying to kill Lincoln in a crowded theater.

It's embarrassing to get out smarted and out stupided at the same time (Booth's plot)

(06-21-2016 04:32 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 04:25 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Here we go, Roger, you pushed my "start" button. I love it.

John, thank you very much for posting Snyder's statement. I am now definitely less skeptical after reading it. Still, I am confused as to Atzerodt's statement as he implies it was the "Northern crowd" which was behind the whole idea.

Your research is terrific, John - much appreciated!

Is it possible that the "Northern crowd" provided the financing to the Confederacy to pull off the scheme? "Northern" to me could mean money bags in New York City, Copperheads in upstate New York and elsewhere. Or, it could refer to the Confederate Cabinet in Canada, which was receiving money from Judah Benjamin et al.

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(06-21-2016 04:55 PM)Gene C Wrote:  How would you plant land mines at the White House lawn and have no one catch you?

Why the White House lawn?
It's not like Lincoln spent a lot of time on the lawn.

I've got to pull out my copy of Come Retribution.
This makes about as much sense to me as trying to kill Lincoln in a crowded theater.

It's embarrassing to get out smarted and out stupided at the same time

I'm still going on the theory that the explosives, coal torpedoes, or even barrels of gunpowder made it into the White House via the large sewage pipes under the building. I trust William Seales's research. Speaking of coal, how was the White House heated? Coal burning furnaces by any chance? Coal wagons pulling up to an outside chute?

(06-21-2016 06:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 04:32 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 04:25 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Here we go, Roger, you pushed my "start" button. I love it.

John, thank you very much for posting Snyder's statement. I am now definitely less skeptical after reading it. Still, I am confused as to Atzerodt's statement as he implies it was the "Northern crowd" which was behind the whole idea.

Your research is terrific, John - much appreciated!

Is it possible that the "Northern crowd" provided the financing to the Confederacy to pull off the scheme? "Northern" to me could mean money bags in New York City, Copperheads in upstate New York and elsewhere. Or, it could refer to the Confederate Cabinet in Canada, which was receiving money from Judah Benjamin et al.

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(06-21-2016 04:55 PM)Gene C Wrote:  How would you plant land mines at the White House lawn and have no one catch you?

Why the White House lawn?
It's not like Lincoln spent a lot of time on the lawn.

I've got to pull out my copy of Come Retribution.
This makes about as much sense to me as trying to kill Lincoln in a crowded theater.

It's embarrassing to get out smarted and out stupided at the same time

I'm still going on the theory that the explosives, coal torpedoes, or even barrels of gunpowder made it into the White House via the large sewage pipes under the building. I trust William Seales's research. Speaking of coal, how was the White House heated? Coal burning furnaces by any chance? Coal wagons pulling up to an outside chute?

Found my own answer to the source of heat: Central furnace with coal-fueled hot water and hot air system installed in 1853 during the presidency of Franklin Pierce. Could not find the name of the furnace operator during Lincoln's time, but he was paid $600/year.

If coal bombs could take out steamboats, etc., wouldn't they be able to do some kind of damage to the White House and, with lots of luck, take out a President? And, no one would have to plant them on the lawn. Just send a delivery of coal peppered with explosives.

I asked for it. I will answer each in turn.

Gene C. The grounds of the White House were not "off limits" to the public. There are mentions of gates - but no guards. I have read this, there is nobody to bar passage and the multitudes, washed and unwashed, always had free egress and ingress... if we go upstairs at any hour we find corridors and waiting rooms full of people... soldiers camped on the lawn...some cattle...and Lincoln walked unattended to the War Dept....etc. It would be simple to spread a blanket and picnic, while you scraped a shallow hole for a "sub-terra".
My approach, why haul tons of explosives into the White House when you can bury a 25 pound 'sub-terra' and coax Lincoln to stand by it?
I'm being "clipped" here but you know what I mean.

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Next. Laurie don't be confused by what Atzerodt says. He can't even speak good English. Seriously, Atzerodt might not have known what "mine the White House " meant. (Apparently there were many people who thought as he did.) Harney was a sub-terra man. His last job before this one was to "mine " the roadway in front of Sherman's "March to the Sea". He was so successful that Sherman called for Confederate Prisoners to March in front of his men. The South quit, because they were killing more southerners than Yankees.

As for "Northern Crowd". That's a catch-all phrase to describe some thing that you know nothing about. There were many wealthy people in New York, and elsewhere, who, who were making "Millions" (when Lincolns Secretary was making $2500 a year). There were programs, such as, "Food for Cotton", that were legal and approved for use and Lincoln shut them down - WHAM! That hurt. So, if we kill Lincoln , the war will continue and we will make more.

Makes sense.
Not sure if it would work, but at this stage of the war, desperate times call for desperate measures.

Next. As for huge sewer pipes - no way. The White House is only about 30 ' above the Potomac River. There is not enough "fall" to carry sewage away. Did you know that Constitution Ave. was once a "Drainage Canal"? It still is. The Canal is covered over and is now used to dispose of Snow when necessary
We can debate for hours on how many tons of explosives would be needed to destroy the White House, and how to get it inside, and hide it. - when there is no need, when I can formulate a plan to do it cheaper and quicker, with a "Sub-terra". They didn't have dynamite in 1865 so they would need more barrels of gunpowder to do the same damage.

Next. I will "preach" next on what may have been going on. It involves Slater and her hurried trips back and forth to Canada.
Beginning about the middle of March when Booth's plan to kidnap Lincoln failed. Richmond had to do something NOW! They sent Slater North to tell Canada that they are "Taking Over". Canada may have had some input, so they shipped Slater out promptly, and E. G. Lee worried about her safety and the message she carried. She begged for an escort, but no one was available. She got as far as Roderick D. Watson and still no help. Eventually, Booth got pressed into service. He got her to D.C. and passed her to John Surratt. Surratt claimed he was too busy to take her South so some others were pressed into service, except Augustus Howell had been arrested the night before. At this point Surratt probably realized that he could do better, if he went to Richmond. I don't know if Slater shared her messages with her escorts (They had to be in Code) but I think Surratt knew what was in the messages. They barely get to Richmond, when they are shipped immediately back to Canada. At this same time Harney hotfoot's it to Gordonsville. (Harney went his own way to get help from Mosby.) The point I'M making here is the all-out haste of this operation. Surratt and Slater get to Canada and they have finished their usefulness, so they are sent to Elmira, to get them out of the way. About the same day that they go to Elmira, Harney is captured
Everyone knows of the events that followed.
The one thing that impresses me about Harney's mission is the absolute secrecy of the whole event. NO ONE TALKED!
Do you realize that this mission was a Secret until the 1980's. All of the facts were available to anyone who wanted them, but no one put them in order.. That is why we are having problems arriving at an understanding of the events. There is nothing written about all that went on.
That is why I have tried to put this all on paper. I want you to hack it to pieces, and see what that gets us. It is always easier to change a sentence, than it is to create one.
In my opinion, this could change our conception of what happened in early April 1865. Would you say Surratt was "Involved" with the assassination? Was his Mother involved? I'm not "UP" on law, but if you plan a Murder, and then don't do it, can you be hanged? I would agree with "some punishment", but hanging?
In my mind, Booth originated his plan, by himself, about April 12th +/-. As all the "participants" have stated, Booth never mentioned "Assassination", until the 14th.
Another guess. Booth acted as he did, because he wanted to "Rewarded" for his efforts. He wanted to stand alone, in the limelight.
I want to add, that the Confederate government was fully involved in this mission. They picked the best man for the job and put all the resources on the confederacy at his disposal, believing he could extend the life of the Confederacy.
More to come.

"Next. Laurie don't be confused by what Atzerodt says. He can't even speak good English. Seriously, Atzerodt might not have known what "mine the White House " meant. (Apparently there were many people who thought as he did.) Harney was a sub-terra man. His last job before this one was to "mine " the roadway in front of Sherman's "March to the Sea". He was so successful that Sherman called for Confederate Prisoners to March in front of his men. The South quit, because they were killing more southerners than Yankees.

"As for "Northern Crowd". That's a catch-all phrase to describe some thing that you know nothing about. There were many wealthy people in New York, and elsewhere, who, who were making "Millions" (when Lincolns Secretary was making $2500 a year). There were programs, such as, "Food for Cotton", that were legal and approved for use and Lincoln shut them down - WHAM! That hurt. So, if we kill Lincoln , the war will continue and we will make more."

John - I'm going to pretend that you did not insult me with these statements. First, let's not confuse Atzerodt's problems with the English language with his intelligence. I don't believe he was quite as ignorant as some would have you believe. Years ago, we had a young historian from Delaware who would drive to Surratt House twice a month to give tours. His specialty was researching the Atzerodt family. He found that, going back to their roots in Germany, the family came from good stock, were well-liked, and of middle-class means. They maintained a similar life even after immigrating to America. George may have had a speech problem and a proclivity for the bottle, and needed to make money, but I don't believe he was as stupid as history has portrayed him.

This Delaware gentleman suffered his entire life from juvenile/Type I diabetes, and I maintained contact with him through several amputations until I received word a few years ago that he had passed on. I would love to know where his research disappeared to.

I further believe that assassination was Plan B all along and that at least suggestions of it were made at that meeting at Gautier's. That's what spooked Sam Arnold and others.

I will also change the word "sewer" pipes to "water" pipes that provided entry underground to the White House. Those are very well-documented in a number of articles online, including almost a step-by-step description of how the water (that had once been carried in buckets for five blocks from Franklin Square) was upgraded to transportation through wooden pipes constructed from huge tree trunks. I am also very aware of the existence of Tiber Creek during the Civil War - and have actually seen what's left of the old creek by viewing it from the basement of the Dept. of Commerce (I think that department) about 10-15 years ago.

And I'm really leaving in a huff now that you have told me that I don't know anything about the "Northern crowd." I have spent forty years of my life wishing that I could place blame for Lincoln's assassination on at least one of them! My money was on Fernando Wood or Belmont for a long time. After January 1, 1863, and especially after Gettysburg that same year, I think there were lots of people in the South, North, Midwest, and Canada, who would have been happy to rid the world of Abraham Lincoln. And before I get slammed by others for that last sentence, I am not disparaging Mr. Lincoln. I am just saying that he had many enemies. Not unlike our political situations today.

You ask us to consider every angle and then shoot from the hip when we suggest something. Several years ago, there was a long debate on where Booth obtained the slouch hat that he had on at the Navy Yard bridge. I made a passing comment that, for all we know, he grabbed Peanuts's hat as he pushed the boy away. For the next week, I received rather nasty emails from a person berating me for making such a stupid suggestion. I see the same thing happening here.

I am now stating flatly that I think coal bombs deposited in deliveries for the White House furnace are worth consideration at least as is the possibility of entrance through the water lines. William Seale and a variety of other historians did not get approval from the White House Historical Association to research the history without some good credentials.

Mr. Hall used to tell me to consider every possibility and then search to prove or disprove each one. That's what I hope to continue to do.

(06-22-2016 06:44 PM)L Verge Wrote:  "Next. Laurie don't be confused by what Atzerodt says. He can't even speak good English. Seriously, Atzerodt might not have known what "mine the White House " meant. (Apparently there were many people who thought as he did.) Harney was a sub-terra man. His last job before this one was to "mine " the roadway in front of Sherman's "March to the Sea". He was so successful that Sherman called for Confederate Prisoners to March in front of his men. The South quit, because they were killing more southerners than Yankees.

"As for "Northern Crowd". That's a catch-all phrase to describe some thing that you know nothing about. There were many wealthy people in New York, and elsewhere, who, who were making "Millions" (when Lincolns Secretary was making $2500 a year). There were programs, such as, "Food for Cotton", that were legal and approved for use and Lincoln shut them down - WHAM! That hurt. So, if we kill Lincoln , the war will continue and we will make more."

John - I'm going to pretend that you did not insult me with these statements. First, let's not confuse Atzerodt's problems with the English language with his intelligence. I don't believe he was quite as ignorant as some would have you believe. Years ago, we had a young historian from Delaware who would drive to Surratt House twice a month to give tours. His specialty was researching the Atzerodt family. He found that, going back to their roots in Germany, the family came from good stock, were well-liked, and of middle-class means. They maintained a similar life even after immigrating to America. George may have had a speech problem and a proclivity for the bottle, and needed to make money, but I don't believe he was as stupid as history has portrayed him.

This Delaware gentleman suffered his entire life from juvenile/Type I diabetes, and I maintained contact with him through several amputations until I received word a few years ago that he had passed on. I would love to know where his research disappeared to.

I further believe that assassination was Plan B all along and that at least suggestions of it were made at that meeting at Gautier's. That's what spooked Sam Arnold and others.

I will also change the word "sewer" pipes to "water" pipes that provided entry underground to the White House. Those are very well-documented in a number of articles online, including almost a step-by-step description of how the water (that had once been carried in buckets for five blocks from Franklin Square) was upgraded to transportation through wooden pipes constructed from huge tree trunks. I am also very aware of the existence of Tiber Creek during the Civil War - and have actually seen what's left of the old creek by viewing it from the basement of the Dept. of Commerce (I think that department) about 10-15 years ago.

And I'm really leaving in a huff now that you have told me that I don't know anything about the "Northern crowd." I have spent forty years of my life wishing that I could place blame for Lincoln's assassination on at least one of them! My money was on Fernando Wood or Belmont for a long time. After January 1, 1863, and especially after Gettysburg that same year, I think there were lots of people in the South, North, Midwest, and Canada, who would have been happy to rid the world of Abraham Lincoln. And before I get slammed by others for that last sentence, I am not disparaging Mr. Lincoln. I am just saying that he had many enemies. Not unlike our political situations today.

You ask us to consider every angle and then shoot from the hip when we suggest something. Several years ago, there was a long debate on where Booth obtained the slouch hat that he had on at the Navy Yard bridge. I made a passing comment that, for all we know, he grabbed Peanuts's hat as he pushed the boy away. For the next week, I received rather nasty emails from a person berating me for making such a stupid suggestion. I see the same thing happening here.

I am now stating flatly that I think coal bombs deposited in deliveries for the White House furnace are worth consideration at least as is the possibility of entrance through the water lines. William Seale and a variety of other historians did not get approval from the White House Historical Association to research the history without some good credentials.

Mr. Hall used to tell me to consider every possibility and then search to prove or disprove each one. That's what I hope to continue to do.

Laurie. I apologize, if I have offended you with my weak attempt to make you laugh. If you don't remember Atzerodt's confession, in detail, take another look - he did not express himself clearly - at all. Whenever I write some views, they are not intended to be critical of others, they are intended to be "as I see it". How can we do what Mr. Hall recommended, if we don't express a personal slant on a happening?
When I'm used the words "New York Crowd", I was referring to the words themselves. I tried to say that they were not an organized group. I now admit - poorly done (It was after 1 AM).
Long ago, my Mama trained me "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." Amen!

I am still confused over whether the plan to bomb the White House was a Northern plot or a Southern plot. Atzerodt states it was a Northern plot. Whereas Snyder's statement to Ripley implies that the Harney mission was a Southern plan. This makes me wonder if Mr. Stelnick were right all along - that there were officials in Richmond (such as Benjamin) actually working with the "Northern crowd." If this were true, Booth may have told Atzerodt that the Northerners were behind the plot and left out the part that Southerners were going to carry it out. If powerful Northerners were actually working with powerful Southerners to kill Lincoln, did Booth know it?

IMO most members of the Northern crowd were powerful men involved in the cotton trade. Some of these men were good friends of Lincoln. Cotton prices became so inflated due to the war that some of these men made a ton of money in the futures market. This would be fine if they were "long" cotton, but they stayed long cotton "too long" and didn't short cotton when the price dropped like a rock. As the war wore down, they began losing so much money that they wanted another President whom they thought would rev up the war again, thus increasing cotton prices and recouping their losses. This theory would have it that Lincoln was targeted for financial reasons as prolonging the war would benefit the traders as cotton futures rose.

So is it possible the Harney plan was actually a combined Northern and Southern plot?

(06-23-2016 04:50 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  I am still confused over whether the plan to bomb the White House was a Northern plot or a Southern plot. Atzerodt states it was a Northern plot. Whereas Snyder's statement to Ripley implies that the Harney mission was a Southern plan. This makes me wonder if Mr. Stelnick were right all along - that there were officials in Richmond (such as Benjamin) actually working with the "Northern crowd." If this were true, Booth may have told Atzerodt that the Northerners were behind the plot and left out the part that Southerners were going to carry it out. If powerful Northerners were actually working with powerful Southerners to kill Lincoln, did Booth know it?

IMO most members of the Northern crowd were powerful men involved in the cotton trade. Some of these men were good friends of Lincoln. Cotton prices became so inflated due to the war that some of these men made a ton of money in the futures market. This would be fine if they were "long" cotton, but they stayed long cotton "too long" and didn't short cotton when the price dropped like a rock. As the war wore down, they began losing so much money that they wanted another President whom they thought would rev up the war again, thus increasing cotton prices and recouping their losses. This theory would have it that Lincoln was targeted for financial reasons as prolonging the war would benefit the traders as cotton futures rose.

So is it possible the Harney plan was actually a combined Northern and Southern plot?

That is the theory that I have been cogitating on for years, Roger. One had the money, the other had the know-how in munitions (and remember that a coal bomb was supposedly on Jeff Davis's desk). And one of the best wheelers and dealers in finance took off when Richmond fell and never came back.

I'm referring to Judah Benjamin, who lived quite well in exile -- either with some Confederate gold or some backing from financiers. We have yet to find the golden thread of evidence that can tie both North and South together on this issue, but research from Hall et al., Stelnick, and our own John Fazio sure leads one to think along those lines.

P.S. Wasn't one of Mr. Lincoln's sisters-in-law part of the cotton deals?

(06-23-2016 09:08 AM)L Verge Wrote:  P.S. Wasn't one of Mr. Lincoln's sisters-in-law part of the cotton deals?

Yes, at the moment I am blank on the details, but I think Emilie Todd Helm was involved with cotton. Also, Martha Todd White.

(06-23-2016 09:08 AM)L Verge Wrote:  I'm referring to Judah Benjamin, who lived quite well in exile -- either with some Confederate gold or some backing from financiers. We have yet to find the golden thread of evidence that can tie both North and South together on this issue, but research from Hall et al., Stelnick, and our own John Fazio sure leads one to think along those lines.

P.S. Wasn't one of Mr. Lincoln's sisters-in-law part of the cotton deals?

I have a different opinion Laurie.
My knowledge of Judah Benjamin is based upon the book Judah Benjamin which I thought was pretty good.
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...h+benjamin

He remade his fortune with his legal practice in England, and literally wrote the book on maritime law.

There really wasn't that much confederate gold. The Confederate Gov't was basically bankrupt by the beginning of 1865. They couldn't buy weapons, food or even pay their soldiers, and no one would lend them any money. Inflation was rampant. This based on A Rebel War Clerks Diary by John Jones. Paper Confederate money was almost worthless. Also by the end of the war, much of Europe was making arrangements for another source of cotton, so the south no longer had much of an economic leverage.

(06-23-2016 04:50 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  I am still confused over whether the plan to bomb the White House was a Northern plot or a Southern plot. Atzerodt states it was a Northern plot. Whereas Snyder's statement to Ripley implies that the Harney mission was a Southern plan. This makes me wonder if Mr. Stelnick were right all along - that there were officials in Richmond (such as Benjamin) actually working with the "Northern crowd." If this were true, Booth may have told Atzerodt that the Northerners were behind the plot and left out the part that Southerners were going to carry it out. If powerful Northerners were actually working with powerful Southerners to kill Lincoln, did Booth know it?

IMO most members of the Northern crowd were powerful men involved in the cotton trade. Some of these men were good friends of Lincoln. Cotton prices became so inflated due to the war that some of these men made a ton of money in the futures market. This would be fine if they were "long" cotton, but they stayed long cotton "too long" and didn't short cotton when the price dropped like a rock. As the war wore down, they began losing so much money that they wanted another President whom they thought would rev up the war again, thus increasing cotton prices and recouping their losses. This theory would have it that Lincoln was targeted for financial reasons as prolonging the war would benefit the traders as cotton futures rose.

So is it possible the Harney plan was actually a combined Northern and Southern plot?

RJ's Question. That is a fair question.
In my opinion, it was a nonpolitical plot by selfish moneymakers, both North and South.
The Southerners were not able to sell cotton because of the blockade. The northerners had a surplus of food. so, they worked out a trade "Food for Cotton". Nothing wrong with that, and the program was approved. Everyone accepted it - then Lincoln shut them down. Both North and South were displeased. Up to this point, I believe the South had no plan to Kill Lincoln. (Some may have wanted to, but it was not Approved).
Now the South could see that they were being beaten. They didn't want to surrender, they wanted a negotiated peace.(and keep their slaves). Someone, North or South, came up with the idea - maybe not government people, but wealthy traders - lets get rid of Lincoln and continue the war. The Northerners were not concerned with who got killed, their children were safe, because of the "Hire a substitute system", the South wanted SLAVES. Suppose, they would provide an assassin, if the North agreed to let him escape - or some such plan.
This was a plan between a losing Army and moneymakers.
I do believe that Harney was approved by the South. Unless, he was a good liar, and told Major Boyle and Mosby that Davis had approved his mission. (Does this make sense?)

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(06-23-2016 10:45 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(06-23-2016 09:08 AM)L Verge Wrote:  I'm referring to Judah Benjamin, who lived quite well in exile -- either with some Confederate gold or some backing from financiers. We have yet to find the golden thread of evidence that can tie both North and South together on this issue, but research from Hall et al., Stelnick, and our own John Fazio sure leads one to think along those lines.

P.S. Wasn't one of Mr. Lincoln's sisters-in-law part of the cotton deals?

I have a different opinion Laurie.
My knowledge of Judah Benjamin is based upon the book Judah Benjamin which I thought was pretty good.
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...h+benjamin

He remade his fortune with his legal practice in England, and literally wrote the book on maritime law.

There really wasn't that much confederate gold. The Confederate Gov't was basically bankrupt by the beginning of 1865. They couldn't buy weapons, food or even pay their soldiers, and no one would lend them any money. Inflation was rampant. This based on A Rebel War Clerks Diary by John Jones. Paper Confederate money was almost worthless. Also by the end of the war, much of Europe was making arrangements for another source of cotton, so the south no longer had much of an economic leverage.

Gene. From what I have read - Mr. Benjamin took very good care of Mr. Benjamin. He had money that he had never spent before.
When Benjamin left Richmond, he was wearing a new coat, that he had made, it had extra pockets, which were all filled with gold. (true story) His letter to Thompson, which was delivered by E. G. Lee, that told Thompson how to dispense the gold he was holding - keep some to get escaped prisoners to get to Richmond, keep some for you to get to Richmond, etc., and send the rest to Fraiser-Trenhome, to be put in my private account. And they did. I don't know how much, it was all shown in Pounds and "Hay-pennies".
There is a new book out, "A Rebel and a Rose". It's about moving Confederate gold to Canada, and also about where he left some along the way.
Somewhere, I read that in the last days of the Confederacy, Jeff Davis was very sick, and Benjamin ran the government. He began all his letters with "The President directs me to have you ....." So, he got his way about everything, unopposed.
There are other stories about, all the Confederate Officials went to "Niagara-on-the-Lake" (a city in Canada) to get their last paychecks, including Jeff Davis. and Generals, congressman, etc. - everyone>) John.

Can any of you members speak Irish Gaelic? I am deep into finding Harney, and not doing well at all. I believe he may have provided information in Gaelic, or at least with a heavy accent. For example, when he was asked about his birthplace, he said BLAIR. He didn't say "Blair, Pennsylvania." which is what we assume he meant. I have read some of his replies, or read his handwriting, and they are boggled.

When he was captured at College Hill, he was not a "Spook", or "under cover" in any way. So, I doubt that he lied, or purposely gave goofy answers. He spoke as he always did.

If I am having problems, then the interrogator in 1863, had problems too. In one record, he is said to have been born in "Shadberry" or some such place. There is no "Shadberry" in Ireland. That might have been the name of a remote crossroad, or a nick-name of a part of a town. (There is a "Shadberry" bush.) (Did he give a comical answer??)

Is there a word in Gaelic, that sounds like "Blair", but has another meaning? I will not quit - I will "find" Harney.

PS I know exactly where he was from 1853 until he got out of Elmira in July 1865. PS2 That shows some new progress. My next step is to find out if he joined the Fenians and "invaded" Canada.