This is the death certificate of Sarah A. Spencer, formerly known as Sarah Slater. Can anyone read the cause of death? I can make out "chronic" on the first line and "nephritis" on the second line, but not the second word on the first line.

Note that even on her deathbed, Sarah was not forthcoming about her age! Evidently her relatives made their best guess when putting a birth year on her tombstone.

Parenchymatous, I think. She died one day before Annie Weichmann.

(11-02-2015 11:29 PM)Pamela Wrote:  Parenchymatous, I think. She died one day before Annie Weichmann.

Thanks! Chronic parenchymatous nephritis. One site says this is synonymous with Bright's disease, which killed Kate Chase Sprague as well.

(11-02-2015 11:53 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  

(11-02-2015 11:29 PM)Pamela Wrote:  Parenchymatous, I think. She died one day before Annie Weichmann.

Thanks! Chronic parenchymatous nephritis. One site says this is synonymous with Bright's disease, which killed Kate Chase Sprague as well.

Susan:

Are you absolutely certain this is in fact Sarah Slater's death certificate? If the estimated age at death (65 or even 66) is accurate, she would have been 10 or 11 in 1865 inasmuch as the date of the certificate is 1920.

John

Fascinating! Thanks, Susan -

Brights Disease is also what killed John Hartranft....

Quote:Note that even on her deathbed, Sarah was not forthcoming about her age!

Most ladies in the 19th Century rarely were true with their ages....Lew Powell's Baltimore lady love, Mary Branson, always thought to be the younger of the two Branson sisters, I have discovered, was the elder - born December 7, 1828 according to her christening record. Sister Maggie, thought to be the eldest, but actually the youngest, was born on August 16, 1834.... Mary's death certificate stated that she was "40 years of age" upon her death from Uterine Cancer in 1871. She was, according to her christening record, actually 43 years of age.... so "white lie" about their age they certainly did!

(11-03-2015 03:14 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(11-02-2015 11:53 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  

(11-02-2015 11:29 PM)Pamela Wrote:  Parenchymatous, I think. She died one day before Annie Weichmann.

Thanks! Chronic parenchymatous nephritis. One site says this is synonymous with Bright's disease, which killed Kate Chase Sprague as well.

Susan:

Are you absolutely certain this is in fact Sarah Slater's death certificate? If the estimated age at death (65 or even 66) is accurate, she would have been 10 or 11 in 1865 inasmuch as the date of the certificate is 1920.

John

Yes. As John Stanton pointed out when he traced her past 1865 a few years back, all of the family connections of Sarah Spencer point to this being the same person as Sarah Slater. The only thing that doesn't match is the age, and as Betty notes, this was a subject about which ladies felt free to be less than candid. (Shaving 10+ years off her age also was helpful if Sarah wanted to keep silent about her wartime past, which she apparently did.)

(I hope this works) The whole certificate is a mess. But, IT IS SARAH.
1. Her mother's maiden name was Rayaud. "A. Raynaud" became Sarah's Code name, You can find her in the SLH Register with John Harrison on April 18, when they got back from Elmira. The St. Albans Raiders didn't know by any other name.
2. Her Occupation was really "Trained Nurse", but she wasn't working at the end of her life.
3. Birthplace of her Father - not Conn. He was from he Trinidad Area.
4.Her Father was Jos. M.
5. Her Husband (at this time) was SPENCER, but he was also her Brother in law. He was married to her sister, until she died.
6.Sarah's tombstone at "Poughkeepsie Rural" is shown in "Find A Grave". along with her sister Josephine E. Loftin and her Mother A. R. Gilbert.
7. Sarah did not live in "Pokie" for 20 Years, She married Spencer in New York City, and they lived there until he died. He was a Clerk in the Police Dept. She was married in "The Little Church Around the Corner."
8. I have a Picture of 6 Grub Street. Some men lived on the 1st floor and she lived above.
9 Her Death Certif. was provided by her "baby" brother. Joseph. He lived in Reading PA. She had another brother in Hazleton, PA
I talked to one of their children and asked if they would like to know more about Sarah. They said NO.
10She had brothers in Jax, FL and in Hoboken, NJ
(I also have a Birth Certif, and Divorce Papers. and Josephine's Marriage Certif. and more.)
I am getting all these papers ready to give to Laurie, they are a mess, so it will take time.
Sahrah also had some family in Atlantic City.
Susan Do You need anything more at this time ?
I can tell you where she was Every Day of her Life. (She may have been on a train, but I know where it started and ended.)
I'm working on Harney now.

(11-05-2015 11:21 PM)SSlater Wrote:  (I hope this works) The whole certificate is a mess. But, IT IS SARAH.
1. Her mother's maiden name was Rayaud. "A. Raynaud" became Sarah's Code name, You can find her in the SLH Register with John Harrison on April 18, when they got back from Elmira. The St. Albans Raiders didn't know by any other name.
2. Her Occupation was really "Trained Nurse", but she wasn't working at the end of her life.
3. Birthplace of her Father - not Conn. He was from he Trinidad Area.
4.Her Father was Jos. M.
5. Her Husband (at this time) was SPENCER, but he was also her Brother in law. He was married to her sister, until she died.
6.Sarah's tombstone at "Poughkeepsie Rural" is shown in "Find A Grave". along with her sister Josephine E. Loftin and her Mother A. R. Gilbert.
7. Sarah did not live in "Pokie" for 20 Years, She married Spencer in New York City, and they lived there until he died. He was a Clerk in the Police Dept. She was married in "The Little Church Around the Corner."
8. I have a Picture of 6 Grub Street. Some men lived on the 1st floor and she lived above.
9 Her Death Certif. was provided by her "baby" brother. Joseph. He lived in Reading PA. She had another brother in Hazleton, PA
I talked to one of their children and asked if they would like to know more about Sarah. They said NO.
10She had brothers in Jax, FL and in Hoboken, NJ
(I also have a Birth Certif, and Divorce Papers. and Josephine's Marriage Certif. and more.)
I am getting all these papers ready to give to Laurie, they are a mess, so it will take time.
Sahrah also had some family in Atlantic City.
Susan Do You need anything more at this time ?
I can tell you where she was Every Day of her Life. (She may have been on a train, but I know where it started and ended.)
I'm working on Harney now.

SSlater:

First of all, excellent work, and I will look forward to learning more about Thomas Harney.

My understanding is that she and Surratt arrived in Richmond, after a difficult journey from Washington, at the end of March (29-31); that John returned to Washington on April 3 and left the following morning for Montreal, stopping first in New York to see Booth, who, however, was not there, being engaged, rather, in Boston. Do we really know that Sarah was with him on this trip? In any case, he then continued on to Montreal, arriving there on the 6th. He later told McMillan that while there, he received a "letter", by which I shall assume he meant a telegram, from Booth, advising him that their plans had changed and "ordering" him to return to Washington "immediately" because it had become necessary for them to "act promptly". (Vol. 1 of his trial, p. 471). Weichmann also mentions the communication (p. 335). Further, in response to the "letter", he left Montreal "immediately" for Washington. Putting aside, for the moment, the question of why he would stop in Elmira if he was ordered to Washington immediately, why would he bring Sarah with him to Elmira? None of the five witnesses who put him in Elmira at the time (though only one unequivocally puts him there on the 14th) said anything about his being in the company of a woman. The business about casing out the prison there for a possible breakout has an odor to it; Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and had set a goal of 3,000 per week. Nevertheless, assuming he really did go to Elmira and assuming she accompanied him, why would she return to Montreal with him after the assassination? The Elmira story, of course, is contradicted by some 13 or 14 witnesses at his trial, who put him in Washington on the 14th, as well as by Ste. Marie, who testified that Surratt had told him he was in Washington that day and left the following morning, by train, in disguise. As for Ste. Marie, however, it must be said that there is a lie in there somewhere (maybe Surratt's), because in his Affidavit in Italy he said that Surratt had told him he was in New York at the time of the assassination "prepared to fly". That has to be why Carrington, Pierrepont, et al. did not introduce the Affidavit, intent, as they were, on proving that Surratt was in Washington. I would still like to know why he would go to Elmira and blithely patronize haberdashers, etc. if his orders were to return to Washington immediately because their plans had changed (the failure of the Harney mission?). I am interested in your thoughts on all of this.

John

(11-05-2015 11:21 PM)SSlater Wrote:  (I hope this works) The whole certificate is a mess. But, IT IS SARAH.
1. Her mother's maiden name was Rayaud. "A. Raynaud" became Sarah's Code name, You can find her in the SLH Register with John Harrison on April 18, when they got back from Elmira. The St. Albans Raiders didn't know by any other name.
2. Her Occupation was really "Trained Nurse", but she wasn't working at the end of her life.
3. Birthplace of her Father - not Conn. He was from he Trinidad Area.
4.Her Father was Jos. M.
5. Her Husband (at this time) was SPENCER, but he was also her Brother in law. He was married to her sister, until she died.
6.Sarah's tombstone at "Poughkeepsie Rural" is shown in "Find A Grave". along with her sister Josephine E. Loftin and her Mother A. R. Gilbert.
7. Sarah did not live in "Pokie" for 20 Years, She married Spencer in New York City, and they lived there until he died. He was a Clerk in the Police Dept. She was married in "The Little Church Around the Corner."
8. I have a Picture of 6 Grub Street. Some men lived on the 1st floor and she lived above.
9 Her Death Certif. was provided by her "baby" brother. Joseph. He lived in Reading PA. She had another brother in Hazleton, PA
I talked to one of their children and asked if they would like to know more about Sarah. They said NO.
10She had brothers in Jax, FL and in Hoboken, NJ
(I also have a Birth Certif, and Divorce Papers. and Josephine's Marriage Certif. and more.)
I am getting all these papers ready to give to Laurie, they are a mess, so it will take time.
Sahrah also had some family in Atlantic City.
Susan Do You need anything more at this time ?
I can tell you where she was Every Day of her Life. (She may have been on a train, but I know where it started and ended.)
I'm working on Harney now.

Thanks, John! I would love to see her divorce papers, but I can wait if you're getting ready to send them in Laurie anyway.

"The business about casing out the prison there for a possible breakout has an odor to it; Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and had set a goal of 3,000 per week."

I'll just take a moment to be picky about the above statement because I have spent so many years listening to people disparage the thought that John Surratt would have been assigned to case the joint at Elmira (affectionately known as Hellmira) Prison Camp as late as April of 1865. There were still a large number of Confederate prisoners held at just that one camp - and there were hundreds of thousands more held in similar camps both North and South.

When one states that the prisoner exchange was resumed under Grant on January 24,1865, with an anticipated release of 3000/week, one is giving the impression that gates immediately opened and quickly released the inmates. We all know that government never runs things that efficiently!

How long did it take for the orders to filter down to each prison commander? How long did it take to determine who would be the first prisoners released? How much paperwork was involved? Where would they be transferred before official release from military duty or reassignment? Where would the special needs inmates (those in need of immediate medical care) be sent? How quickly could even 3000 be processed out?

Just wrap your brain around the fact that Andersonville alone had over 30,000 prisoners. Moving at great efficiency, that would take at least ten weeks to clean out just that one camp. That would move just its closing into the month of March 1865. And, after Sherman delivered Savannah to President Lincoln as a Christmas gift in 1864, the health issues just there became more dire as the Union forces laid total destruction to crops, animals, mills, etc. -- anything that could supply citizenry, and that included those dying in the prisons.

That said, why is it so darned hard to believe that John Surratt was sent on a side mission by Gen. E.G. Lee to check out the situation in Elmira (likely for the purpose of determining the possibility of getting those prisoners into Canada for medical assistance)? Why wait any longer for Booth to accomplish something? If Surratt is on the Confededrate payroll, he'll do what the Confederate commanders request -- and he'll be a lot closer to safe territory in Canada if something does go wrong.

By the way, was Grant's goal of freeing 3,000 prisoners a week ever met, even one week?

(11-06-2015 01:23 PM)L Verge Wrote:  "The business about casing out the prison there for a possible breakout has an odor to it; Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and had set a goal of 3,000 per week."

I'll just take a moment to be picky about the above statement because I have spent so many years listening to people disparage the thought that John Surratt would have been assigned to case the joint at Elmira (affectionately known as Hellmira) Prison Camp as late as April of 1865. There were still a large number of Confederate prisoners held at just that one camp - and there were hundreds of thousands more held in similar camps both North and South.

When one states that the prisoner exchange was resumed under Grant on January 24,1865, with an anticipated release of 3000/week, one is giving the impression that gates immediately opened and quickly released the inmates. We all know that government never runs things that efficiently!

How long did it take for the orders to filter down to each prison commander? How long did it take to determine who would be the first prisoners released? How much paperwork was involved? Where would they be transferred before official release from military duty or reassignment? Where would the special needs inmates (those in need of immediate medical care) be sent? How quickly could even 3000 be processed out?

Just wrap your brain around the fact that Andersonville alone had over 30,000 prisoners. Moving at great efficiency, that would take at least ten weeks to clean out just that one camp. That would move just its closing into the month of March 1865. And, after Sherman delivered Savannah to President Lincoln as a Christmas gift in 1864, the health issues just there became more dire as the Union forces laid total destruction to crops, animals, mills, etc. -- anything that could supply citizenry, and that included those dying in the prisons.

That said, why is it so darned hard to believe that John Surratt was sent on a side mission by Gen. E.G. Lee to check out the situation in Elmira (likely for the purpose of determining the possibility of getting those prisoners into Canada for medical assistance)? Why wait any longer for Booth to accomplish something? If Surratt is on the Confededrate payroll, he'll do what the Confederate commanders request -- and he'll be a lot closer to safe territory in Canada if something does go wrong.

By the way, was Grant's goal of freeing 3,000 prisoners a week ever met, even one week?

Laurie:

Let us grant that there was some value in casing out Hellmira. That still leaves open the two questions: 1) What happened to Surratt's being "ordered" to Washington "immediately" by Booth, especially after he allegedly telegraphed Booth in New York from Elmira and learned that he had already left for Washington, and especially because he allegedly told McMillan that in response to Booth's order, he left Montreal "immediately" for Washington? 2) Do we really know that Sarah went with him to Montreal, and then to Elmira, and then back to Montreal after the assassination?

John

(11-06-2015 01:23 PM)L Verge Wrote:  "The business about casing out the prison there for a possible breakout has an odor to it; Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and had set a goal of 3,000 per week."

I'll just take a moment to be picky about the above statement because I have spent so many years listening to people disparage the thought that John Surratt would have been assigned to case the joint at Elmira (affectionately known as Hellmira) Prison Camp as late as April of 1865. There were still a large number of Confederate prisoners held at just that one camp - and there were hundreds of thousands more held in similar camps both North and South.

When one states that the prisoner exchange was resumed under Grant on January 24,1865, with an anticipated release of 3000/week, one is giving the impression that gates immediately opened and quickly released the inmates. We all know that government never runs things that efficiently!

How long did it take for the orders to filter down to each prison commander? How long did it take to determine who would be the first prisoners released? How much paperwork was involved? Where would they be transferred before official release from military duty or reassignment? Where would the special needs inmates (those in need of immediate medical care) be sent? How quickly could even 3000 be processed out?

Just wrap your brain around the fact that Andersonville alone had over 30,000 prisoners. Moving at great efficiency, that would take at least ten weeks to clean out just that one camp. That would move just its closing into the month of March 1865. And, after Sherman delivered Savannah to President Lincoln as a Christmas gift in 1864, the health issues just there became more dire as the Union forces laid total destruction to crops, animals, mills, etc. -- anything that could supply citizenry, and that included those dying in the prisons.

That said, why is it so darned hard to believe that John Surratt was sent on a side mission by Gen. E.G. Lee to check out the situation in Elmira (likely for the purpose of determining the possibility of getting those prisoners into Canada for medical assistance)? Why wait any longer for Booth to accomplish something? If Surratt is on the Confededrate payroll, he'll do what the Confederate commanders request -- and he'll be a lot closer to safe territory in Canada if something does go wrong.

By the way, was Grant's goal of freeing 3,000 prisoners a week ever met, even one week?

Laurie:

Let us grant that there was some value in casing out Hellmira. That still leaves open the two questions: 1) What happened to Surratt's being "ordered" to Washington "immediately" by Booth, especially after he allegedly telegraphed Booth in New York from Elmira and learned that he had already left for Washington, and especially because he allegedly told McMillan that in response to Booth's order, he left Montreal "immediately" for Washington? 2) Do we really know that Sarah went with him to Montreal, and then to Elmira, and then back to Montreal after the assassination?

John

(11-06-2015 02:01 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(11-06-2015 01:23 PM)L Verge Wrote:  "The business about casing out the prison there for a possible breakout has an odor to it; Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and had set a goal of 3,000 per week."

I'll just take a moment to be picky about the above statement because I have spent so many years listening to people disparage the thought that John Surratt would have been assigned to case the joint at Elmira (affectionately known as Hellmira) Prison Camp as late as April of 1865. There were still a large number of Confederate prisoners held at just that one camp - and there were hundreds of thousands more held in similar camps both North and South.

When one states that the prisoner exchange was resumed under Grant on January 24,1865, with an anticipated release of 3000/week, one is giving the impression that gates immediately opened and quickly released the inmates. We all know that government never runs things that efficiently!

How long did it take for the orders to filter down to each prison commander? How long did it take to determine who would be the first prisoners released? How much paperwork was involved? Where would they be transferred before official release from military duty or reassignment? Where would the special needs inmates (those in need of immediate medical care) be sent? How quickly could even 3000 be processed out?

Just wrap your brain around the fact that Andersonville alone had over 30,000 prisoners. Moving at great efficiency, that would take at least ten weeks to clean out just that one camp. That would move just its closing into the month of March 1865. And, after Sherman delivered Savannah to President Lincoln as a Christmas gift in 1864, the health issues just there became more dire as the Union forces laid total destruction to crops, animals, mills, etc. -- anything that could supply citizenry, and that included those dying in the prisons.

That said, why is it so darned hard to believe that John Surratt was sent on a side mission by Gen. E.G. Lee to check out the situation in Elmira (likely for the purpose of determining the possibility of getting those prisoners into Canada for medical assistance)? Why wait any longer for Booth to accomplish something? If Surratt is on the Confededrate payroll, he'll do what the Confederate commanders request -- and he'll be a lot closer to safe territory in Canada if something does go wrong.

By the way, was Grant's goal of freeing 3,000 prisoners a week ever met, even one week?

Laurie:

Let us grant that there was some value in casing out Hellmira. That still leaves open the two questions: 1) What happened to Surratt's being "ordered" to Washington "immediately" by Booth, especially after he allegedly telegraphed Booth in New York from Elmira and learned that he had already left for Washington, and especially because he allegedly told McMillan that in response to Booth's order, he left Montreal "immediately" for Washington? 2) Do we really know that Sarah went with him to Montreal, and then to Elmira, and then back to Montreal after the assassination?

John

I'm not addressing Sarah at all in this situation because I think she was in Montreal waiting or engaged in anything else the Confederate Cabinet could think of.

I think you can also safely assume from my posting that I don't think Surratt was paying any attention to Booth's orders at that time. He didn't work for Booth. My personal opinion is that he had first assisted Booth at the request of Davis or Benjamin (if for no other reason than to keep tabs on him).

When Richmond fell on April 3, Booth became the loose cannon that broke away from its moorings on the good ship CSA. He may have thought he was still boss of some people (i.e. Herold and Paine), but that was one of his personality flaws...

By the evening of April 11, the full force of evil demons had taken over Booth's actions.

(11-06-2015 03:03 PM)L Verge Wrote:  When Richmond fell on April 3, Booth became the loose cannon that broke away from its moorings on the good ship CSA. He may have thought he was still boss of some people (i.e. Herold and Paine), but that was one of his personality flaws...

By the evening of April 11, the full force of evil demons had taken over Booth's actions.

This may well be the most poetic of Laurie's posts.

--Jim

Before I say anything, I want you (and everyone else) to know, I want you to think for yourself. I study these events, everyday, and often change my mind. All I'm saying is this is how I see it right now.
I can't say this is how it is. None of us can.

Beginning in Washington, March 25, Surratt and Sarah were in D.C. Sarah was on her way to Richmond. Surratt, apparently, had something else on his mind, he didn't want to go to Richmond. But, He escorted her to the Potomac where anther man was to take over. This is contrary to all that had been the system. However, the man who was to go, backed-out, and Surratt did go to Richmond.

This is a little early to be talking about assassinations, but it would have been about the time when "Harney's Mission" would have been in development, most likely in Richmond,

After a short stay in Richmond, Surratt and Sarah departed Richmond on April 1st. for Washington, and on to Canada. Harney departed Richmond on April 1st, for Gordonsville, VA.

Surratt was in Canada only a few days when (if you believe) General E. G. Lee tagged Surratt for a trip to Elmira. Sarah had no assignments (that we know of) so she went with him.

The reason behind the new-born interest in Elmira was Gen. E.G.Lee,
Lee had been sent to Canada to organize the escaped Confederate Prisoners living there, into a new Confederate Army. Obviously, there were not enough men available, so, he wanted to "go get some. (The same thinking created a look at Point Lookout in Maryland>)

In Lafayette Baker's "History of the U.S. Secret Service", there is a lengthy story about Surratt's train ride back to Montreal. Surratt is clearly identified, and he is travelling with an un identified "Little man". (Sarah was less than 5'-o" tall.) The "Little man" was bundled up to His/Her ears, so that His/Her features were hidden.. He/she was not permitted to talk during an interrogation. Surratt answered all the questions. Surratt and the "Little man" rode mostly on the platform, between the cars, away from all others.

When Surratt arrived in Montreal, April 18th +/-, and signed the St. Lawrence Hall Register - John Harrison. The next signature - in the same handwriting, is "A, Reynaud". A. Reynaud, is Sarah's mother's maiden name. Sarah was with Surratt in Elmira.

Back to April 1st, and Harney. Harney reached Upperville, and Mosby, about April 5th. Left Upperville about April 8th, and without the details, captured April 10th, and jailed.

Booth, in the meantime, was meeting with the "New York Crowd" and getting brought up to date on the plan to "Blow up the White House". He returned to Washington April 8th, and told Atzerodt about the plan that would get the Pres, certain. Therefore, Booth knew that Richmond had proposed, planned, developed, and approved an dispatched an Agent, to get the Pres, Certain. As that plan faltered and failed, Booth fired off messages to Surratt - Come Home, there have been some changes. Surratt could not change his Orders from a General, to satisfy a raving cohort, without approval. He finished at Elmira first. AMEN! NUFFF SAID1

More, for John. Unfortunately for us, almost everyone , for the prosecution, in the various trials, after the War - LIED. and later were proved to have LIED, and the prosecution, knew it. The U.S. could not afford to lose one case. I read what they say, and I look for support -there is none. BUT, Surratt did not lie to Ste. Marie, in Italy - He was in New York on the 14th. Elmira is in New York