Thanks, Laurie. It's similar here - the state is closer than the country.

Great post SandiS!!!!!!!

Sandi - thank you for your thoughtful reply. I so appreciated the measured and sincere tone. I am afraid sometimes in our discussions here we (me included) need to remember these beautiful words from Lincoln,

“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”

I am afraid in most of our politics and cultural discussions about topics that deeply divide us that we forget those very real and very profound sentiments. One very valuable lesson that the Civil War should have taught us is that we are all citizens of The UNITED States of America, and that my voice, beliefs, and opinions are no less and no more important than anyone else's; and that the blood that bought that right wasn't shed only for the citizens in the North, but for those in the South, also.

My introduction to the Civil War was Fletcher Pratt's wonderful history for children, "The Civil War." I learned very early and have never entirely let go of the idea of the War being "the American Iliad" where gallant Americans on both sides fought each other fiercely but did not entirely abandon their humanity.

Perhaps such a concept was a prerequisite to reconciliation in the generations after the war. Perhaps it even helped prevent another Civil War in the 1960's over the civil rights revolution. I don't think many 1915 observers of the American South or South Africa would have predicted that these white supremacy regimes would have disappeared without a bloodbath.

The attractiveness of the idea of the American Iliad should not blind us to the hard and bitter truths of the Civil War. We can not deny that slavery was horrible and was the overwhelming cause of the War. We can not forget the atrocities on both sides and must never forget that the freed slaves were shamefully abandoned after Reconstruction.

I find it very difficult to credit accusations by some people that today's White Southerners are seeking to restore white supremacy when many of these White Southerners do all all sort of intellectual gyrations to convince themselves that race had little or nothing to do with the Civil War.

Tom

Christine-SUPER post!

(08-12-2015 08:41 AM)Rosieo Wrote:  I find people's emotional attachment to the Confederate flag hard to understand. I want to understand. I read what people say about it. I observe what they do.

So I learn as much history as I can, and try to educate myself. So far, I do not understand and nothing anyone has said, so far, allows me to agree that any Confederate flag should be on government or school grounds.

Finallly, this is why I want to write and read about it. I have heard many authors at their book talks say something like: well, I did not know anything about this topic so I had to write about it. Elizabeth Varon from Virginia State said that about Juneteenth, if I recall correctly - I mention her as an example.

Maybe in my writing and questioning I am not clear sometimes/ a lot of times. I focus on a topic and the abundance of curousity within me takes over. I always want to know. And then know more. It is a curse sometimes.

You hit upon part of the problem. Many authors write about something they do not know anything, or much of anything, about. We have a fair amount of that in the Lincoln Assassination field, just look through the book section of this site. Some authors try to claim they have found something new that isn't, or try to twist facts to sensationlize their story to sell more books, get more attention, which they hope will result in more $$.
And even Lincoln scholors don't agree on everything.

One more thing, be very careful with the one person opinion blogs and news articles.
They are only opinions usually based upon one persons limited perspective.

I didn't directly answer your question because in my opinion there is no one perfect answer.

From what you've written, it appears that you have already formed an opinion that you feel strongly about.
Not trying to speak for Roger, but if you want to read and write more about the Confederate flag, this is probably not the best place to be. Our primary focus is on other subjects.

Rosieo, I'll send you a private message later.

(08-12-2015 12:15 PM)SandiS Wrote:  As a Virginian born and bred, I am sorry to say that White Southerners do not want to "restore white supremacy" because many have never experienced it being gone. Many would love to restore Jim Crow segregation and separatism but that will not happen so there is a detente of sorts that operates within a strong undercurrent of white supremacy and yet you are right that they have still somehow managed to make racism (which was universal) and slavery (which was also prevalent) only minor contributors to the "War of Northern Aggression". My South still has deep division and conflict on race and a fear of honesty that is not healthy.

Some of what you have written in your post (which has since been deleted) I can agree with, but I disagree with your comment above as an American who has lived most of his life in the south (Maryland, Florida, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentuckly, and even Virginia). I know some people feel that way, but it's not limited to the south, and it's not limited to white folks. I'm sorry you think your corner of the word feels that way. As a White Southerner, I find that comment inacurate and offensive. I also find it inapropriate for the discussions this forum was designed to promote. A few people have tried to redirect the discussions in this thread and a few have commented that they were leaving this discusion. I'm joining them.

(06-24-2015 08:18 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  While the issue of the Confederate flag may or may not be a problem- I think the effort going on at this time is misguided in that it doesn't address the more deeply rooted problem in our nation- the breakdown of the family. Remove the Confederate flag- and even remove all of the statues and memorials of the Confederacy- and you still have the same problem- which is virtually ignored by the media and politicians of the day.

How sad that a flag should be the totem for racial hatred. Hatred is in the heart, and that's where the focus should be in clearing it out. I'm not American, so perhaps it's not my place to say so, but if my ancestors had fought and died beneath that flag, I would be quite upset to see it being used as a device for creating more hatred.

The Nazi's took a sacred symbol of luck, the swastika, and forever tainted it. Is this what will happen to the Confederate flag? If they ban that flag, something else will be taken up and used in the same way, I don't doubt. And so it goes on and on, ad nauseam.

---

(06-25-2015 09:52 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  Here's my take on this - we've become a nation of snivelling, whiney, bleeding heart sissies that pander to anyone who screams racism. As several forum members have stated, their ancestors wore gray. The overwhelming majority were not slaveholders. As with all wars, the working man goes to the front. We're constantly told we can't judge all Muslims by the actions of extremists, but if the right folks scream racism loud enough, things like this come about. Young men who went to war because they saw their homeland burned and looted, can be painted with a broad brush if it quells the whining masses. The whole thing .makes me sick.

It's worse in the UK, regarding bleeding heart sissies, believe me! Our leader is one of them!!

You know, I guess most if not all of those who went to war, had to in the end, or be shot for it. In the end, did any of them have a choice? All those people who died, on both sides... it shouldn't be in vain...something good should come out of it. History teaches us nothing.

Great post MaddieM! I agree with you 100%!

Gene wisely wrote:

(08-12-2015 01:34 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I disagree with your comment above as an American who has lived most of his life in the south (Maryland, Florida, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentuckly, and even Virginia). I know some people feel that way, but it's not limited to the south, and it's not limited to white folks. I'm sorry you think your corner of the word feels that way. As a White Southerner, I find that comment inacurate and offensive. I also find it inapropriate for the discussions this forum was designed to promote.

I'm probably one of the few members of the forum who ever had a chance to meet and have a conversation with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I was only 12, but was present when he and my mom had what could have been a disagreeable encounter in a restaurant in Tallahassee.

Dr. King, who was accompanied by Andrew Young, Jesse Jackson, and an older gentleman who's name I can't remember, did something in the otherwise empty restaurant my mother took issue with, and she walked over to his table and upbraided him for it. She did it in a kindly way, and it was obvious to all that her objection had nothing to do with anyone's race.

Dr. King apologized for his behavior and went on to say something VERY MUCH like what Gene posted. I thought that entire encounter was embarrassing at the time, of course, being a kid, but have thought about it a lot since and am glad I was lucky enough to be there. He complimented my mom on being able to see beyond a person's race and thanked her for her treating him as a gentleman.

--Jim

And I agree with Herb agreeing with you 100%!

Your statement that hatred is held in the heart, not in a symbol, is so appropriate. When the news first hit about the church shooting and the photo spread with the young man holding a Confederate flag, all I could think of was, "That flag did not cause this. The world around him, as he perceives it, is what caused him to do such a horrible thing." Someone else asked me why he didn't take his vengeance out in the bad part of town, not on peaceful, God-loving people in their place of worship. All I could think of to answer was, "Cowardice."

I mentioned earlier that I live and work in a predominantly African American county. One of the local newspapers did an article on July 30 that tried very hard to be inflammatory, in my opinion. They took a statement by our black county executive relating to the need to remove offensive reminders of the past and expounded on it by using the Surratt House as an example of a slave-holding family who supported the Confederacy to the extreme. They came very close to blatantly stating that the museum might be an example of something that is offensive and needs to be torn down.

They had done a phone interview with me previously, and I was quoted on the historical aspects of our story as well as a little history on the rise of the Confederate battle flag in prominence during the 1960s - not the 1860s. Luckily, at some point they must have been on tour at the museum and were able to interview several other visitors who were African American and from the community. Both of those visitors praised our museum and also gave their take on what constitutes good history and what constitutes bad history. They expressed the need for everyone to learn about the past, not to destroy it, but to work to overcome the bad.

All I could think of was how much I wish those two could be heard on the evening news. Or, better yet, how good it would be for the instigators and agitators on all sides to read the books of Dr. Ben Carson, a black child who rose from the ghetto projects to become a brilliant neurosurgeon. I am not preaching politics here because I frankly feel that Dr. Carson is too good a person to be in politics of this era, but his views are so much like the American thoughts of old that they make my heart ache with what he's trying to teach us.

(08-13-2015 07:26 PM)Jim Page Wrote:  I'm probably one of the few members of the forum who ever had a chance to meet and have a conversation with Dr. Martin Luther King...

Wow, Jim, that is something! Although the way you describe the meeting maybe it was not a picture-taking opportunity, but do you have any photos of Dr. King with 12-year-old Jim that you could post?

(08-14-2015 06:06 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Wow, Jim, that is something! Although the way you describe the meeting maybe it was not a picture-taking opportunity, but do you have any photos of Dr. King with 12-year-old Jim that you could post?

Hey, Roger--

I've looked on the Web to see if I could find any photos that might have been taken that day, but no luck. I found a photo on the Web one time that shows me as a skinny long-haired hippy at the 1972 Republican convention in Miami, and used that one on my blog.

--Jim

Maddie, Jim and Laurie -

What wonderful posts! I am proud of my Confederate ancestor; my great-great grandfather. He did what he thought he had to do at the time.....

Most folk today are not aware that the South saw the oncoming conflict as a "second American Revolution" if you will; nothing more - and responded accordingly.

Jim - you don't know how lucky you are to meet Dr. King! Chance of a lifetime -