(08-03-2015 08:27 PM)SSlater Wrote:  

(08-03-2015 07:35 PM)Gene C Wrote:  John, this is from the book "This Awful Drama" p. 152

"Apparently some disagreement arose between Edwin and Jacob Thompson concerning authority and the amount of money the Confederate government intended the latter to turn over to Edwin. After Edwin handed Thompson a memorandum concerning the funds, Thompson answered on April 9:
Last evening I estimated that I would return $30,000 until you could hear from Mr. Benjamin. On second thought, however, I am unwilling to consent to this arrangement because it will hamper my movements and might prevent me from availing myself a favorable opportunity of returning home - in other words, when I lave here I intend to be a free man.

Two days later Thompson, accompanied by his secretary, Will Cleary, left for Halifax."

(footnote for Thompson's reply; "Copied letter in manuscript book of unknown person, p30, Confederate Museum"

and on p. 157
"In the meantime, Jacob Thompson and his secretary Will Cleary, had reached Riviere du Loup when they learned of Lincoln's assassination. The electrifying news gave them pause. Bad weather then detained Thompson until late spring when he sailed from Halifax for Europe, carrying with him some 12,000 pounds of Confederate funds. Cleary decided to turn back and lived out the rest of the year in Canada.
(footnote - Biographical Directory of the American Congress, 1774-1971, 1810: Thomas "traveled throughout Europe in 1866 and 1867; settled in Memphis, Tenn., and managed the affairs of his extensive holdings; died in Memphis, March 24, 1885"

A little bit more later, I don't like to write long posts.

I will wait until you finish your post, and add my two cents.
I have a copy of the letter that Benjamin wrote, that directed Thompson - How to disperse the "treasury". Most of the money was to be deposited in Benjamin's personal Account, in England. Thompson gets receipts for the money. (He kept "Adequate funds to be able to return home.") Some of Thompson's delay in leaving Canada was - he was waiting for his wife to arrive from Mississippi.
PS When Benjamin escaped, after the war, his first stop -before he went to see his wife - was the bank in England".

ene C.

Gene C. See your 1st Footnote. You may have copied from the manuscript of Rev. Stephen F. Cameron. It contains all the notes he could find, and was preparing to write a book on "THE HISTORY OF THE CONFEDERATE SECRET SERVICE. Unfortunately, he never wrote the book. The file has copies of the letters you mention. I am not questioning what you read, but I didn't see that letter. Another item that is different, I read that Thompson went to Portland, Maine, alone,and was there on April 14. He was spotted there by the Provost Marshal - Do you know that story?

---

(08-04-2015 09:49 PM)Gene C Wrote:  

(08-03-2015 08:27 PM)SSlater Wrote:  I will wait until you finish your post, and add my two cents.
I have a copy of the letter that Benjamin wrote, that directed Thompson - How to disperse the "treasury". Most of the money was to be deposited in Benjamin's personal Account, in England. Thompson gets receipts for the money. (He kept "Adequate funds to be able to return home.") Some of Thompson's delay in leaving Canada was - he was waiting for his wife to arrive from Mississippi.
PS When Benjamin escaped, after the war, his first stop -before he went to see his wife - was the bank in England".

Sorry for the delay on my comments about Jacob Thompson -
I couldn't find any more significant info in "This Awful Drama". Susan Higginbotham sent me a file of Edwin Lee's diary for 1865. It's hard to read and doesn't cover much detail.
However, I did find this from Eli Evans book on Judah Benjamin
regarding Jacob Thompson...., regarding the attempted fire bombs in New York City, "Benjamin was embarrassed and furious about the mission. The damage done, or lack of it, did not matter-after all, look what Sherman was doing in Georgia. But once more it was hideously bungled: full stories in the newspaper, lack of discretion in choosing the parties to the plot, and the selection of targets, as if hotels were military installations. The most the raid could accomplish was to create excitement, stirring up vast numbers of people against the South without destroying crucial supply depots, military trains, or arsenals to make the mission worthwhile. It made the papers without making any difference.

The President (Davis) had lost his patience. He felt that Thompson was just throwing away money in Canada; there were rumors that any deserter could get a couple of thousand dollars by just saying he wanted to organize a Sons Of Liberty operation somewhere."
...... more failed operations ( John Yates Beal's failed attempt to capture a Federal gunboat patrolling the Great Lakes and then rescue prisoners from the Johnson Island prison, and then the St. Albans bank robbery, Thompson's plan to spend $100,000 out of his Confederate accounts with a Nashville banker to spent it in New York in an attempt to create a run on the gold market) and more are mentioned on page p 272.

"The spies, still more panicked after yet another failure, began to freelance more, with less and less control by Thompson." p273

I gather Davis and Benjamin were tired of Jacob Thompson's mismanagement and were attempting to recall him.
I agree with Wild Bill about Evan's book. It is very good.

That's a great post. That's the first time I was able to see the poor judgment, all in one place. They never questioned his loyalty, it was as you show. I am aware that he was asked to return, but I thought it was for another assignment. He never had time to return,, the war ended.

(08-04-2015 09:38 PM)Rosieo Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 07:50 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 06:30 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 05:39 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 03:29 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Rick:

Then there is no difference in our basic positions. We both agree that there was a general conspiracy to decapitate the government of the United States, or to at least get as many as they could. It was all that was left to them to avert what they considered to be the catastrophe that was then all but upon them.

John

John,

Agreed.

No question that Booth and his team had as their objective the decapitation of the federal government. A reflection of the Harney plan. If not all at one place, simultaneous assassination at different places would have to do.

Probably the difference in our positions is that I would have been with them.

But then, I am unreconstructed.

Rick

Rick:

No probablies about it. What will it take to reconstruct you? Two questions: Do you agree that acknowledgement of error is a mark of courage? Do you believe that slavery was desirable and therefore worth preserving even at the cost of war? Upon receipt of your answers, I will refer you to a document which I believe you will find interesting. I'll give you a hint: it is not Alexander Stephens's famous pre-war speech, nor his equally famous post-war speech.

John

John,

We may be delving into murky waters here. Although a Southerner and having many ancestors who were in General Lee's army, I do believe that if slavery was what the War was over, it was the worst reason for a fight. No slave was worth even one of the 700,000 casualties.

But there is more to it than this, and I cannot put it into words that anyone not of Southern heritage would understand. I do believe that the South was manipulated into firing the first shot; all part of Mr. Lincoln's and the radical Republicans' plan to bring on the war.

Bill Richter has written on this subject and can speak eloquently upon it; I cannot.

Rick

Now I want to ask if you're a flagger. Not sure how much I do not understand, so I refrain.

John,

What is a flagger? This is not a term I am familiar with.

Rick

---

John,

I do not display or own a Confederate flag, although I have no objection to others who do.

An interesting point was made by Bill Richter, who said the Stars and Stripes flew over slavery for 88 years, while the Confederate flag flew for only four.

I think that General Lee was right when he said that slavery was a great moral evil, but think that changing the name of Jeff Davis Highway, which runs through Virginia, is ridiculous.

Rick

I agree with you Rick about the Jeff Davis Highway! History is history,whether it be termed as Confederate or U.S.history! I feel that Bill Richter is a very eloquent man!

(08-04-2015 10:06 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Gene C. See your 1st Footnote. You may have copied from the manuscript of Rev. Stephen F. Cameron. It contains all the notes he could find, and was preparing to write a book on "THE HISTORY OF THE CONFEDERATE SECRET SERVICE. Unfortunately, he never wrote the book. The file has copies of the letters you mention. I am not questioning what you read, but I didn't see that letter. Another item that is different, I read that Thompson went to Portland, Maine, alone,and was there on April 14. He was spotted there by the Provost Marshal - Do you know that story?

First, I admire, respect, and appreciate those of you who search into the museums and libraries and find letters and manuscripts, old church records and cemeteries, city directories, census info and other places. I have no idea how to do that, where to look and what to look for, and don't have the patience if I did know. Y'all have uncovered and brought back into the light some amazing things.

I don't know the story of Thompson in Portland. Love to hear it.

(08-05-2015 06:43 AM)Rosieo Wrote:  

(08-05-2015 05:40 AM)Rick Smith Wrote:  [

What is a flagger? This is not a term I am familiar with.

I used the word flagger. I hope it is not offensive! It relates to groups of people who support the Confederate flag. They use word Heritage to describe themselves. I follow Brooks Simpson's blog .. one of his subject areas involves challenges to historical errors some of these groups insist on keeping alive. He is a fearless, crusty, intelligent, wonderful writer. A Grant expert. And a very nice man.

Rick, you said you were unreconstructed. This raises a lot of questions in my mind but they are off topic for this thread and dont really fit in this forum. I posted my comment on impulse. I'd like to further my education on this but, as I say, not sure this is the place.

My apologies to John and to you, Roseio, as I thought that it was a question from John, and no offense taken.

Unreconstructed, at least to me in these days, means not to be subject to political correctness or going with the crowd, but to stand for your beliefs, in an appropriate way, with courtesy.

John asked earlier if I thought that admitting one's errors was a sign of courage; I do believe that. It is one of the defining qualities of manhood to admit when you are wrong and to learn from it. Here is a quote from a man I truly admire and respect, speaking of manhood and Christian manhood in particular:

"Circumstances do not dictate your character; they reveal it; and become the opportunity to refine and grow it."

Rick

---

(08-05-2015 06:25 AM)HerbS Wrote:  I agree with you Rick about the Jeff Davis Highway! History is history,whether it be termed as Confederate or U.S.history! I feel that Bill Richter is a very eloquent man!

Thanks, Herb.

Bill is a master of the written word. He is also a good and generous friend.

Rick

Back to the Judah Benjamin theme: We have mentioned briefly before a controversial (and very convoluted) theory proposed in a posthumous publication entitled Dixie Reckoning. It focuses a great deal on the "NY Crowd."

A decade ago, I was "allowed" to read the ms. for DR, and I made notes along the way. On page 105 of the ms. mention is made of a 1909 book entitled Retrospectives of an Active Life by John Bigelow. Bigelow states that Seward knew that Judah Benjamin and James Mason were privy to Booth's plot because the assassins had gold on hand -- and no gold was in circulation in the U.S. at that time. I never checked this out; anyone have info on the U.S. monetary system in 1865? I thought we were on the double standard.

(08-04-2015 09:38 PM)Rosieo Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 07:50 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 06:30 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 05:39 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 03:29 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Rick:

Then there is no difference in our basic positions. We both agree that there was a general conspiracy to decapitate the government of the United States, or to at least get as many as they could. It was all that was left to them to avert what they considered to be the catastrophe that was then all but upon them.

John

John,

Agreed.

No question that Booth and his team had as their objective the decapitation of the federal government. A reflection of the Harney plan. If not all at one place, simultaneous assassination at different places would have to do.

Probably the difference in our positions is that I would have been with them.

But then, I am unreconstructed.

Rick

Rick:

No probablies about it. What will it take to reconstruct you? Two questions: Do you agree that acknowledgement of error is a mark of courage? Do you believe that slavery was desirable and therefore worth preserving even at the cost of war? Upon receipt of your answers, I will refer you to a document which I believe you will find interesting. I'll give you a hint: it is not Alexander Stephens's famous pre-war speech, nor his equally famous post-war speech.

John

John,

We may be delving into murky waters here. Although a Southerner and having many ancestors who were in General Lee's army, I do believe that if slavery was what the War was over, it was the worst reason for a fight. No slave was worth even one of the 700,000 casualties.

But there is more to it than this, and I cannot put it into words that anyone not of Southern heritage would understand. I do believe that the South was manipulated into firing the first shot; all part of Mr. Lincoln's and the radical Republicans' plan to bring on the war.

Bill Richter has written on this subject and can speak eloquently upon it; I cannot.

Rick

Now I want to ask if you're a flagger. Not sure how much I do not understand, so I refrain.

Rick:

I don't know what a "flagger" is.

John

Rick:

I don't know what a "flagger" is.

John


John,

I realized after my response was sent that it was Rosieo who asked me that question at the end of your post to me and it looked like a tag onto yours. I did respond to Rosieo this morning.

My apologies for the confusion.

Rick

(08-05-2015 11:45 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 09:38 PM)Rosieo Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 07:50 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 06:30 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 05:39 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  John,

Agreed.

No question that Booth and his team had as their objective the decapitation of the federal government. A reflection of the Harney plan. If not all at one place, simultaneous assassination at different places would have to do.

Probably the difference in our positions is that I would have been with them.

But then, I am unreconstructed.

Rick

Rick:

No probablies about it. What will it take to reconstruct you? Two questions: Do you agree that acknowledgement of error is a mark of courage? Do you believe that slavery was desirable and therefore worth preserving even at the cost of war? Upon receipt of your answers, I will refer you to a document which I believe you will find interesting. I'll give you a hint: it is not Alexander Stephens's famous pre-war speech, nor his equally famous post-war speech.

John

John,

We may be delving into murky waters here. Although a Southerner and having many ancestors who were in General Lee's army, I do believe that if slavery was what the War was over, it was the worst reason for a fight. No slave was worth even one of the 700,000 casualties.

But there is more to it than this, and I cannot put it into words that anyone not of Southern heritage would understand. I do believe that the South was manipulated into firing the first shot; all part of Mr. Lincoln's and the radical Republicans' plan to bring on the war.

Bill Richter has written on this subject and can speak eloquently upon it; I cannot.

Rick

Now I want to ask if you're a flagger. Not sure how much I do not understand, so I refrain.

Rick:

I don't know what a "flagger" is.

John

Rick:

The document I wish to refer you to is South Carolina's Declaration of its Reasons for Seceding from the Union (that may not be its exact title; it has been a long time since I read it). Observe that it says not a word about tariffs or any of the other alleged causes of the war, but that it has a great deal to say about slavery. Statements of a like kind made by the other seceding states are largely the same in this respect. You say that slavery was the worst reason to fight and that no slave was worth even one of the 700,000 dead. Well, the document(s) to which I just referred you should remove all doubt from your mind that that in fact was what the South fought for. I believe it is time for the unreconstructed to bite the bullet and acknowledge that it was a mistake for the South to fight to preserve slavery. Yes, there were many dimensions of the root cause: the political dimension, the economic one, the social one, the cultural one. But they were all tied to the institution of slavery, which, therefore, really was the ultimate cause of the war.

John

A little story. When I went to grad school and had to grade students' papers in basic US history, all the profs taught Fazio's notion that slavery was the cause of the CW. This holds particularly true in SC, which is a unique state in the South and the Nation in many ways. Yet one sweet thing wrote her paper and then added a paragraph saying that her daddy said it was state rights, and she felt the profs were wrong, and went on to prove it. All the graders wanted to flunk her for straying from the straight and narrow, but I disagreed and said she was the only student who tried to think and she ought to receive an "A." But I did not get to grade her paper as she was in different class section. I think she got a "C." At least I saved her from an "F."

The book that Fazio wants you to read, Rick, is Charles B. Dew, Apostles of Secession: Southern Secession Commissioners and the Causes of he Civil War (Virginia, 2001). Don't feel bad, Fazio has not read it either, right John?.

(08-06-2015 12:24 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  A little story. When I went to grad school and had to grade students' papers in basic US history, all the profs taught Fazio's notion that slavery was the cause of the CW. This holds particularly true in SC, which is a unique state in the South and the Nation in many ways. Yet one sweet thing wrote her paper and then added a paragraph saying that her daddy said it was state rights, and she felt the profs were wrong, and went on to prove it. All the graders wanted to flunk her for straying from the straight and narrow, but I disagreed and said she was the only student who tried to think and she ought to receive an "A." But I did not get to grade her paper as she was in different class section. I think she got a "C." At least I saved her from an "F."

The book that Fazio wants you to read, Rick, is Charles B. Dew, Apostles of Secession: Southern Secession Commissioners and the Causes of he Civil War (Virginia, 2001). Don't feel bad, Fazio has not read it either, right John?.

Thanks, Bill. I will probably not get around to reading it.

John,

You obviously either did not read my earlier response to you regarding "unreconstructed" or you have misunderstood it.

I did not keep any slaves, nor did I fight to keep any, so I can offer no guilt laden apology to you for this.

Rick

(08-06-2015 01:11 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-06-2015 12:24 PM)Wild Bill Wrote:  A little story. When I went to grad school and had to grade students' papers in basic US history, all the profs taught Fazio's notion that slavery was the cause of the CW. This holds particularly true in SC, which is a unique state in the South and the Nation in many ways. Yet one sweet thing wrote her paper and then added a paragraph saying that her daddy said it was state rights, and she felt the profs were wrong, and went on to prove it. All the graders wanted to flunk her for straying from the straight and narrow, but I disagreed and said she was the only student who tried to think and she ought to receive an "A." But I did not get to grade her paper as she was in different class section. I think she got a "C." At least I saved her from an "F."

The book that Fazio wants you to read, Rick, is Charles B. Dew, Apostles of Secession: Southern Secession Commissioners and the Causes of he Civil War (Virginia, 2001). Don't feel bad, Fazio has not read it either, right John?.

Thanks, Bill. I will probably not get around to reading it.

John,

You obviously either did not read my earlier response to you regarding "unreconstructed" or you have misunderstood it.

I did not keep any slaves, nor did I fight to keep any, so I can offer no guilt laden apology to you for this.

Rick

"Ideals", "Causes", "Results", are very important reasons to Debate.
But this thread was intended to seek information on Harney, Thomas Francis. Please take your ranting and raving elsewhere, so I can skip it.

I think we have hit an all time low "No slave was worth even one of the 700,000 casualties"?

I think it's time to change the subject.

If it needs to be moved to the "other" category that's fine. "No slave was worth even one of the 700,000 casualties", is a statement I do not agree with. It's hard to give that a pass. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks that, but I doubt it.