I have had a life-long almost religious reverence of Lincoln. I read somehere that he is one who can be called great in three aspects: as president, writer, and saint. I can't imagine that can be said of any other president and it is hard to name a president who satifies two of the three if by writer one means someone whose best writing is among the best prose in the English language. I can't think of another "saintly" president.

If I had to define the word "saint" in the secular context, I would say it is someone whose life was characterized by a selfless battle against cruelty, no matter that such cruelty was llegally or culturally accepted.

Washington, FDR, Jefferson, Madison, Kennedy and Reagan all have their "cults", but none like Lincoln. Perhaps Martin Luther King comes close, but I don't think he has the quasi-religious aura of Lincoln. Ironically, Robert E. Lee (at least in the South) was given a secular halo, but it does not seem that it is as firmly placed as before.

Is there another historical figure in American culture who comes close to Abraham Lincoln in this regard?

I don't know. Maybe Eleanor Roosevelt?

She did have an aura("She would rather light a candle than curse the darkness") until the early 1980's ushered in the neo conservative Reagan era and liberalism became a bad, borderline evil word. For me she still has it. She is one of my heroes.

As for the other men you mentioned with the exception of Ronald Reagan, I at one time idolized almost every one of them. In the case of Robert F. Kennedy I even had a sort of historical crush on him as a child. And even though I remain fascinated with the Kennedy brothers(NO fiction writer could dream up a family like that!) and admire the good things they brought to America and especially to our image abroad I no longer idolize them and my admiration has dimmed considerably. I still think of MLK Jr. as an heroic but seriously flawed man and I find his courage and eloquence moving even today.

But for me, Lincoln is in a class all by himself. My interest in him began as a six year old Ohio schoolgirl, stoked when we were compelled to memorize the Gettysburg Address at age 9, and really went full tilt after I read "Love Is Eternal" at age 13. Even the disappointment and dismay I felt reading revisionist books about Lincoln(Lerone Bennett's "Forced Into Glory") has not been able to shake my intense attraction to his story. Warts, failures and all there is-in my opinion-something mystical about him that will always draw people in, no amount of bad press or revisionist writing will ever really touch him. In a hundred years people from around the globe will still trek to the Lincoln Memorial to stare gape mouthed up at the man in marble. I am sure of it.

How did he do it? How did an uneducated semi-orphan in rags emerge from the wilderness and end up in the East Room of the White House? How did he outmaneuver and outsmart everyone around him...generals, intellectuals, journalists, fellow politicians... while conducting the bloodiest, most consequential war in American history...a war that ensured the survival of America as one, united country? How did he live with and ultimately love a woman who was his temperamental opposite and who at times caused him so much suffering?

How did he cope with the monumental tragedies of his life and remain so uniquely himself to the end?

[quote='LincolnToddFan' pid='47900' dateline='1432151250']


I think you framed the question very well. A great deal of the Lincoln mystique is based on the wonder that the right person would emerge at the crucial moment and that such a person lacked many of the conventional traits of leadership. At the end of his life, it seems that he began to see that he had been used as an instrument of Providence and that made him even more humble. I try not to deify or romanticize Lincoln but he is the great hero without feet of clay.

I recently read a biography of a remarkable British woman (sadly now much forgotten) named Edith Cavell. She was a British nurse who was setting up a teaching hospital in Belgium at the outbreak of WWI. Caught in enemy occupied territory, she saved many Allied soldiers who would come at night to the hospital to escape capture. She managed to smuggle many back to the UK. The German military made a huge mistake in trying and executing her as a spy, causing world-wide condemnation of an atrocity against a blameless woman. The biographer stated in an interview that she had spent years researching and writing the book and had to conclude reluctantly that there was nothing about Nurse Cavell's life or character that would stain the record.

It is wonderful that we have people like her and Lincoln to look up to, even when, unlike the biographer, we find inperfections.

(05-20-2015 12:50 PM)Juan Marrero Wrote:  Is there another historical figure in American culture who comes close to Abraham Lincoln in this regard?

Some may feel our current president fits the criterea. He's president.
He's a writer, wrote a book about himself, even though it was not quite a literary masterpriece.
He won a Nobel Peace prize for something they were hoping he would do in the future, he just hasn't been able to get around to it yet.
A saint? Well that he aint. But that's just one letter short. Is that close enough?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i...fp-t-311-s
(I think the press may disagree with me here)

No, President Obama is not a secular saint and never pretended to be one. There was a great deal of rock star excitement around him in 2008-2009. He was young, new, fresh, cool, exotic...and America was primed and ready for a Superman at that time.

Fast forward two terms later. He has aged about 100 years and probably can't wait to get the hell out of there next year. And I don't blame him one bit.

---

(05-20-2015 03:08 PM)Juan Marrero Wrote:  [quote='LincolnToddFan' pid='47900' dateline='1432151250']


I think you framed the question very well. A great deal of the Lincoln mystique is based on the wonder that the right person would emerge at the crucial moment and that such a person lacked many of the conventional traits of leadership. At the end of his life, it seems that he began to see that he had been used as an instrument of Providence and that made him even more humble. I try not to deify or romanticize Lincoln but he is the great hero without feet of clay.

I recently read a biography of a remarkable British woman (sadly now much forgotten) named Edith Cavell. She was a British nurse who was setting up a teaching hospital in Belgium at the outbreak of WWI. Caught in enemy occupied territory, she saved many Allied soldiers who would come at night to the hospital to escape capture. She managed to smuggle many back to the UK. The German military made a huge mistake in trying and executing her as a spy, causing world-wide condemnation of an atrocity against a blameless woman. The biograher stated in an interview that she had spent years researching and writing the book and had to conclude reluctantly that there was nothing about Nurse Cavell's life or character that would stain the record.

It is wonderful that we have people like her and Lincoln to look up to, even when, unlike the biographer, we find inperfections.

I know about Edith Cavell. Her tragic story fascinates me. She is a heroine of mine too. Why isn't she a household name like Churchill?? I wonder if British schoolchildren are taught about her the way American children are taught about Washington and Lincoln?

Didn't mean to offend. I'm not very fond of the republican leadership either at the moment.

You didn't offend Gene. Truth be told I'm not too fond of PRESIDENT OBAMA at the moment!

But I did support him at one time, and it's sad to see how he has changed.

The moral of his story is that the media giveth and the media taketh away. And never believe in your own hype...NEVER.

(05-20-2015 02:47 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  and really went full tilt after I read "Love Is Eternal" at age 13.

Boy, do I ever agree with you, Toia. I have been recommending that book to people for many years. A truly wonderful book that is a classic IMO.

(05-20-2015 03:36 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-20-2015 02:47 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  and really went full tilt after I read "Love Is Eternal" at age 13.

Boy, do I ever agree with you, Toia. I have been recommending that book to people for many years. A truly wonderful book that is a classic IMO.

I'm afraid I must have missed the recommemdation and this sounds interesting - may I ask who wrote it?

Irving Stone, an American author during the first half of the 20th century. He wrote a number of biographical novels. Two that I remember are Lust for Life about Van Gogh and The Agony and the Ecstasy about Michelangelo. I think he wrote one on Andrew and Rachel Jackson that is similar to Love is Eternal.

Hi Eva,

It's a highly romanticized work of historical fiction about the courtship and marriage of Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd. It was very popular, a best-seller. It was written in the 50's around the same time as Ruth Painter Randall's sympathetic biography of Mary. These were-in my opinion-the first two major successful attempts to "rescue" Mary's reputation and her marriage from the severely negative impact of the first wave of post-Herndon writers like Dale Carnegie, who assured us that Lincoln's marriage to Mary was more tragic than his death at the hands of an assassin.

"Love Is Eternal" is, as I posted, highly romanticized but it's very well written historical fiction.

Thank you two - Irving Stone I knew but wasn't aware of this book!

I know about Edith Cavell. Her tragic story fascinates me. She is a heroine of mine too. Why isn't she a household name like Churchill?? I wonder if British schoolchildren are taught about her the way American children are taught about Washington and Lincoln?
[/quote]

Edith Cavell enters the "Lincoln league" of inspiring figures by what she did but also by what she told her confessor the night before the execution:

"I have no fear nor shrinking; I have seen death so often that it is not strange or fearful to me."

"I thank God for this ten weeks' quiet before the end. Life has always been hurried and full of difficulty. This time of rest has been a great mercy. They have all been very kind to me here. But this I would say, standing as I do in view of God and eternity, I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards any one."

Isn't it amazing that people spoke like this once? The line about patriotism and hatred would fit right in Lincoln's Second Inaugural.

There will be commemorations in the UK this year to remember the 100th anniversary of the execution; her grave (the family declined burial at Westminsters out of modesty) will be refurbished and a 5 pound note issued in her honor.

Edith Cavell sounds like an amazing women. There seem to be several books about her, which one would you recommend?

(05-21-2015 08:59 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Edith Cavell sounds like an amazing women. There seem to be several books about her, which one would you recommend?

She had the insight that good nursing often had more to offer the patient than " good doctoring" could. It was her hope to open nursing schools on the Continent that would prioritize cleanliness, good food and ventillation. Amazingly, she had a hard time convincing some dismissive doctors that it was not a good idea to go from the autopsy room to the delivery room without washing hands.

A good recent biography is "Edith Cavell: Nurse, Martyr, Heroine" by Diane Souhani.