(01-12-2015 08:08 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-11-2015 12:40 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  ...as I personally believe she was becoming progressively worse at the end of his life.

Why do you feel so? Her depressions or her spending habits? Didn't she participate more actively in life again and even wear other colors than black? (Well, she sure was determined to get her husband reelected because of her debts).

Hi Eva, sorry for the late reply!

I base my opinion about her worsening mental state not only on her out of control spending and desperate scheming to hide it from her husband...all the while unable to stop herself from continuing to spend even more hundreds and thousands of dollars. The debacle at City Point only two weeks before the assassination is another reason I think Mary was completely out of control at the end.

In my fantasies, she and AL would have lived peacefully and happily after the war was over. But I think the years 1861-1864 had taken too much of a psychic toll on her.

BTW this is the first I have read that RTL originally intended for his mother to be confined in the State mental asylum! This surprises me because he personally went to inspect her rooms at the asylum where she was eventually committed, and it was at his insistence that the bars that covered all the patients room windows were removed in Mary's quarters. He refused to allow them. IF it's true that he was dissuaded from sending her to the State asylum all I can say is thank God.

I think that would have sent MTL right over the edge, for good.

Thanks for your reply,Toia!
Toia, that is wording of the plea in the official court form to get her tried. Roger posted the document here:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...age-4.html
I posted the wording of the verdict on the following page, it reads: "...Mary Lincoln is insane, and is a fit person to be sent to a State Hospital for the Insane..."

I will look up later when the decision was switched to Batavia upon Dr. Patterson's suggestion.

On May 10, 1875, John Stuart wrote RTL a letter. One sentence of the letter was as follows:

"I am not so sure about the necessity of personal restraint but is it not probable that if a conservator were appointed that she would consent to remain at some private hospital?"

So I believe it was John Stuart who may have first suggested to RTL that Mary could be placed in a private facility rather than the Cook County Hospital or the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane (either of which RTL originally had desired based on the wording of his "Application to try the question of insanity"). Dr. Patterson expressed his willingness to accept her at Bellevue.

I found this old photo of the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane.

Thank you, Roger, for both the letter and the photo (seemed a gruesome huge prison).

Thanks for the photo Roger. I agree 100% with Eva, that place gives me the willies just looking at a photo. I don't believe Mary would have lasted 48 hours in such a grim place.

What about the building...does it still stand?

From Jason Emerson's book The Madness of Mary Lincoln, it doesn't appear that RTL intended to place his mother in a state facility; rather, as Emerson writes, "the Illinois insanity statute assumed placement in the State Hospital for the Insane, although it allowed the family of 'non paupers' to place them in another facility." Hence the wording of the order. Emerson quotes Mary's attorney as stating that "They [the family] do not intend that she shall be sent to a State Asylum but to a private asylum."

Yes, but according to S. Schreiner in "The Trials of Mrs. Lincoln", before and during the trial there was no guarantee Judge Wallace would consent. The verdict explicitly confined her to a state asylum. Robert and Swett hadn't proposed Bellevue to the judge unless the verdict was safe and conferred with the judge only afterwards. Schreiner writes that Swett forwarded the "positive" news later that day to Mary: "I have good news for you, Mrs. Lincoln. Judge Wallace has agreed that you can go to Dr. Patterson's private asylum in Batavia insted of the state institution. Robert will make the arrangements and take you there in the morning."
So Robert did take the risk that the (Democrat) Judge wouldn't agree to let her go to Batavia. Also he hadn't seen the place before he arrived there with Mary the next day. However, he was very pleased with the etablissement ("nothing to indicate an asylum except only that outside there is a wire netting such as you may see to keep children from falling out"), and he sure was very relieved and glad the judge agreed to send her there.

As I read the verdict, "is a fit person to be sent to a State Hospital for the Insane," this simply meant that she met the criteria to be placed in a state hospital; it didn't mean that she would have to go to one if there was a suitable alternative. I can't see an Illinois judge at the time, even a Democratic one, forcing President Lincoln's son to send his mother to a state asylum when there was a private asylum in which she could be placed at his (or his mother's) own expense. What would be the point of such petty behavior? Any small satisfaction the judge might derive from it would be outweighed by the public outrage, I suspect.

RTL had consulted with Dr. Patterson before the trial, so he must have known of his qualifications and got some idea of his establishment before he took his mother there.

I'm a little wary of Schreiner's book. I have a copy, and the author acknowledges using novelistic techniques in his book--"turning indirect statements into direct quotations or carrying the narrative through imagined thought processes." With no footnotes or endnotes, it's difficult to tell what is the author's invention and what is not.

I am not a lawyer and would ask if it is known whether or not Mary's trial could have been held without Robert filling out the Application To Try The Question Of Insanity.

In the formal application that Robert filed it stated that his mother, "Mary Lincoln, widow of Abraham Lincoln, deceased, a resident of Cook county is insane and that it would be for her benefit and for the safety of the community that she should be confined in the Cook County Hospital or the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane."

Regarding the petition Robert filed I do not see the option for "non-paupers" to pick and choose where the individual to be tried might be sent if found insane at trial.

Simply looking at this at face value as a layman, despite any prior arrangements/talks with Dr. Patterson, etc., how could the Bellevue outcome be legally "guaranteed" once Robert filed this application form?

I am curious to know if legally the trial could have been held without the filing of the Application To Try The Question Of Insanity. I do certainly agree that the State Hospital for the Insane was largely reserved for paupers (although the case of Elizabeth Packard was very different I don't believe she was a pauper), so that is why I wonder if it was legally necessary for Robert to file his petition, and its specific wording, prior to trial.

Is it known whether Robert met with Dr. Patterson before or after he received the letter from John T. Stuart suggesting a private, not public, facility?

(01-13-2015 06:37 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  What about the building...does it still stand?

Toia, I researched this and found, "Today the facility houses developmentally ill patients. Most of the original buildings have been demolished. In November, 2012 the last patients were moved out and the buildings/property were declared surplus property."

(01-14-2015 12:36 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  As I read the verdict, "is a fit person to be sent to a State Hospital for the Insane," this simply meant that she met the criteria to be placed in a state hospital; it didn't mean that she would have to go to one if there was a suitable alternative. I can't see an Illinois judge at the time, even a Democratic one, forcing President Lincoln's son to send his mother to a state asylum when there was a private asylum in which she could be placed at his (or his mother's) own expense. What would be the point of such petty behavior? Any small satisfaction the judge might derive from it would be outweighed by the public outrage, I suspect.

RTL had consulted with Dr. Patterson before the trial, so he must have known of his qualifications and got some idea of his establishment before he took his mother there.

I'm a little wary of Schreiner's book. I have a copy, and the author acknowledges using novelistic techniques in his book--"turning indirect statements into direct quotations or carrying the narrative through imagined thought processes." With no footnotes or endnotes, it's difficult to tell what is the author's invention and what is not.

Re: "RTL had consulted with Dr. Patterson before the trial, so he must have known of his qualifications and got some idea of his establishment before he took his mother there."
- Sure, I didn't deny this. He sure expected it better than a state asylum. But I tend to believe Robert's general, definite decision fell before the idea and option of the private asylum developed.

Also I agree it was likely the judge would consent, but not guaranteed and thus still speculative and a risk (and people quite often do behave strangely).

As for "The Trials of Mrs. Lincoln", on pp. 10/11, the author explains: "Although, for the sake of readability, I have dispensed with footnotes, virtually every statement or assumption can be tracked down to a single source or to a consensus among previous biographers. In many cases, readers will easily spot the raw material...If possible, letters, newspaper accounts and the like are quoted with the original spelling, punctuation and structure intact." (My impression is one can well determine the narrative bits, and they also make sense to me.)

Yes, from Jason Emerson's book, Robert and his intentions appeared entirely noble, I can't help it, the book upset me. However, I find this trial, the proceeding and Robert's conduct and strategy in this regard (despite his intentions) not noble but uttermost unfair beyond words, it really upsets me just to think about that someone, a son, can do this, pull such through. The arrest out of the blue, the situation in the court (especially unpreparedly listening to Robert's testimony) and afterwards (the taking of her bonds) must have been most humiliating. And all the doctors (some of whom had never seen Mary before, nevertheless testified against her), lawyers and all in the jury, who all had ganged up on her, including Arnold, her "defence", were men. She was totally unprepared and alone, left without any intimate or true support on her side, treated like a criminal. Uttermost unfair, mean not to say, and humiliating. On that day, out of the blue, she lost everything left to her of the things dear to her - her freedom, her money, and her last remaining son (at least her all her trust in him - and she had been so proud of him). Well, just my opinion. And how would the story have gone on if MTL hadn't managed to free herself?

(01-14-2015 05:06 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Regarding the petition Robert filed I do not see the option for "non-paupers" to pick and choose where the individual to be tried might be sent if found insane at trial.

Simply looking at this at face value as a layman, despite any prior arrangements/talks with Dr. Patterson, etc., how could the Bellevue outcome be legally "guaranteed" once Robert filed this application form?

Very good question! I would like to learn this, too!?!

Depression and a Bi-Polar disease can do wierd things to people! There has been many medical experiments on,mice,rats,other animals,and humans to prove thier point. I know through family experiences what the effect can do to these helpless people!

Speaking as a lawyer, albeit one without any expertise in 19th-century Illinois involuntary commitment law, to get an action into court, one has to file a pleading. Sometimes the court provides a pre-printed document (such as the one RTL filed here); more often the lawyer is expected to draft his own petition, which still must follow guidelines prescribed by the court rules and make certain allegations to state a cause of action. I don't know whether Illinois law required use of the pre-printed form or not.

It's much harder now to get someone involuntarily committed, and to keep him institutionalized, than it was in the 19th century, which in most respects is a good thing but also means that there are a lot of seriously ill people wandering the streets of large cities in America, and often dying on them.

There were certainly no guarantees in the strictest sense of the word that the judge would have authorized RTL to place his mother in a private asylum, but the statute provided for such a placement where the family was able to pay, and judges are supposed to follow the law. For the judge not to allow Mary to be placed in a private asylum run by a reputable person would have been what in legalese is called arbitrary and capricious. In such a high-profile case as this, it also would have been quite stupid.

I have a great deal of sympathy for both Mary and her son. Could RTL have handled the situation better? Probably, particularly with the benefit of hindsight. But he didn't have that benefit at the time.