In answer on EVA's thread about "JWB and God"

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...-2038.html

I want to say the following:

Good and inspiring question Eva! I have another one....... Does Abraham Lincoln believe in God? What were his religious beliefs?

IMO that question is extremely difficult to answer like yours about JWB, because I think no one exactly knows. It’s a clearly complex issue. What we know is that his father and mother were both highly religious (Baptists), but never joined a church. What we also know is that Abraham was as a young man not very religious, more a skeptic. He never joined a congregation. But he had deep knowledge of the Bible (and quoted it often). I believe he did attend (not frequently ?) the Protestant church with Mary and his children. I also read that he became more religious after the death of Eddie and Willie. According to Rev. Dr. Gurley he believed in Christ, but his close friends Lamon and Herndon stated that Lincoln was not a believing Christian. In fact many tried to Christianize Lincoln, but was that the real Lincoln? Herndon said (in a letter - signed Feb. 4, 1866 - to Edward McPherson, Clerk of the U.S. House of Representatives) that Lincoln doubted the immortality of the soul as the Christian world understands that term. There are a lot of questions about Lincoln’s true beliefs. Okay, during campaign speeches he said that he never denied the truth of the Bible and that he believed in God as all-powerful. But never believe all what is said during political campaigns. It’s my opinion that Lincoln was not religious for most of his life, but his faith seems to have evolved and progressed during his presidency and deepened throughout the war. But I think he rejected organized religion. In the first place he was (according to me) driven not by faith, but by politics.

I have never seen a disbeliever in a fox hole!

Some time ago CNN came with a study of Dr. Christopher F Silver of the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga , concerning 6 types of non-believers: (1) the intellectual atheist (rejecting God on intellectual /scientific grounds), (2) the activist (not content with just disbelieving in God and he wants to tell others why he reject Him), (3) the seeker-agnostic (unsure about the existence of God but keeping an open mind), (4) the anti-theist (he is opposed to religious ideology and is speaking out against religion and religious beliefs), (5) the non-theist (not involved with either religion or anti-religion) and (6) the ritual atheist (he does not believe in God, and does not associate himself with religion, he also believes there is no afterlife, but still finds the teachings of some religious traditions useful). Was Lincoln a “type 6” non-believer? According to Silver type 6 is seeing religious teachings as more or less philosophical teachings of how to live life and achieve happiness than as a path to transcendental liberation.

(11-26-2014 07:19 AM)HerbS Wrote:  I have never seen a disbeliever in a fox hole!

Of course there are disbelievers in a fox hole, but you are right that heavy combat leads many to pray, but not all. And maybe this is truer: if there were no atheists, there would also be no fox holes at all ...

Thank you very much for the information!

Ed Steers wrote an excellent article that was published in the September 1999 North & South magazine. The article was entitled "Was Lincoln a Christian? A Question of Faith." I thought it interesting that there have been four separate stories that have been floated regarding Lincoln's alleged baptism. All the stories have the common thread that the (alleged) baptism took place during the time Lincoln was President-elect.

Summarizing Ed's words: The first story appeared in 1942. In this story a minister of the Disciples of Christ (Brethren) whose name was John O'Kane told of secretly baptizing Lincoln in a creek near Springfield. This account appeared in the "Christian Evangelist" in 1942. The second account appeared in a small book written by Reverend Freeman Ankrum and was published in 1947. In this account Lincoln was baptized by a member of the German Baptist Church commonly known as the "Dunkards." In the third account, which appeared in a book in 1956, a minister, who was a member of the Church of Brethren, came to Springfield from Indiana at night and the baptism was secretly carried out in the Sangamon River. The fourth and final account appeared in Mariah Vance's Lincoln's Unknown Private Life. Vance was the Lincolns' housekeeper. The account is similar to the 3rd story only the baptism was allegedly carried out by the Reverend David Elkins. Since Elkins died in 1857 we know this account is false, and historians generally discount all of these stories.

Ed Steers concludes, "The baptism of Abraham Lincoln is one of those apocryphal stories that persists in Lincoln lore. It never happened."

This is basically what I once replied to a similar statement claiming Abraham Lincoln had no strong faith.

I think the war and Willie's death seriously and increasingly drew him to God and the bible in later life.

This is what Mary told Herndon in Sept.1866:

"...he said — 'I shall rule myself — shall obey my own Conscience and follow God in it.' Mr Lincoln had no hope & no faith in the usual acceptation of those words: he never joined a Church: he was a religious man always, as I think: he first thought — to say think — about this subject was when Willie died — never before. he felt religious More than Ever about the time he went to Gettysburg: he was not a technical Christian: he read the bible a good deal about 1864."

Please also check out this site: http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abra...lns-faith/

Now I have a question - is anything known or assumed about Robert's faith? I can't help it, all I read about him makes me feel he was a rather cold-hearted, matter-of-fact person, and somehow I can't imagine he was a convinced believer, but I sure might be wrong (and a little prejudiced, however, I find he acted that way in the insanity affair).

$$$$ was RTL's faith!

(11-26-2014 03:24 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Now I have a question - is anything known or assumed about Robert's faith? I can't help it, all I read about him makes me feel he was a rather cold-hearted, matter-of-fact person, and somehow I can't imagine he was a convinced believer, but I sure might be wrong (and a little prejudiced, however, I find he acted that way in the insanity affair).

Eva, I have been looking. From what I can tell, so far anyway, there is not much information available. I did find this sentence in The Lincoln Family Album by Mark E. Neely and Harold Holzer:

"Robert Lincoln's religious views certainly seem vague."

Thank you, Roger! I somewhat expected such. Robert was a closed book.

(11-26-2014 03:54 PM)HerbS Wrote:  $$$$ was RTL's faith!

On the internet (no sources or further info) I once read that the mostly black Pullman porters were underpaid and ill-treated, but Robert obviously didn't care (while making good money himself). Does anyone know more on this?

Jason Emerson touches on it some in his book about Robert Lincoln. I don't recall him going as far as to say Robert didn't care.

No,the author is very PC.To me RTL has ice water in his veins!

A friend of mine mentioned Abraham Lincoln and his spiritual beliefs to me the other day - I was intrigued and going to research the subject so thank you all so much for this post!

Jenny this was a good book, it's expensive for a new copy, but a good used one is reasonable

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...-1612.html

The tough part with this subject (at least for me) is to not take our own personal beliefs and make them his too.

(11-26-2014 06:17 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Thank you, Roger! I somewhat expected such. Robert was a closed book.

(11-26-2014 03:54 PM)HerbS Wrote:  $$$$ was RTL's faith!

On the internet (no sources or further info) I once read that the mostly black Pullman porters were underpaid and ill-treated, but Robert obviously didn't care (while making good money himself). Does anyone know more on this?

Robert Lincoln's home, Hildene, has the Pullman railroad car Sunbeam on display along with an exhibit called "Many Voices" which "...highlights the voices of the Pullman Company, the Gilded Age passengers who traveled in its comfort, and the porters who provided the impeccable service that made travel by Pullman second to none." Hildene is on the Vermont African American Heritage Trail.

http://www.vermontvacation.com/Discover%...itage.aspx

"Pullman was the first company to roll out a new model of “sleeper” railcar: outfitted not just with more- comfortable pull-down berths, but with stained glass, gleaming wood, and thick carpets as well, and a staff of African American porters to tend to passenger needs. The Pullman car would play a historic role in the African American journey; as the largest employer of African Americans, many of them freed slaves and their descendants, it would give rise to the first established black middle class in America...
"At Hildene, a railroad car that once carried passengers across the country now transports visitors back in time to an age of national growth and social change. The Sunbeam exhibit, titled “Many Voices,” offers a timeline narrative of the Pullman porters’ story, along with the rare opportunity to stroll the interior of a restored car—from the plush passenger seating in the front to the spartan porters’ accommodations in the back—and to reflect on a complex legacy that calls to us still today."

http://www.yankeemagazine.com/article/hi...urney-home

Jason Emerson quotes from a Chicago Herald article on the "infamous Pullman Strike and Boycott of 1894." "'I wonder what [Abraham] Lincoln would say if he were still in the flesh and could speak to his son who has been advising Mr. Pullman how to starve his employees into subjection,' the paper quoted one of President Lincoln 'admirers' as saying."

Emerson goes on to say that, "While Abraham Lincoln clearly was a champion of labor, Robert Lincoln was clearly a champion of big business."

http://books.google.com/books?id=tPqgC3R...an&f=false