(11-05-2014 04:17 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Kees, "the next morning [after Lee's surrender]" was April 10, and "left...the next morning" seems to refer to leaving Appomattox, thus (10+4=14) Mr. Emerson's calculation seems accurate within itself, but, I agree, incongruent with Grant's memoirs! (I assume that's what you meant at all.) However, it would be great if Mr. Emerson (who's a member) could kindly shed some light on this....

Eva, you are right, but I calculated from the moment Grant took the decision to go to Washington to report to Lincoln. The surrender at McLean's House in Appomattox Court House was April 9 and the whole ceremony lasted ca. 1½ hour. Gen. Lee arrived at ca. 1 P.M. Shortly after the ceremony Grant decided to go to Washington and began his preparations. So, here, at this moment, his "4 day journey" to the capital started, on the 9th. So, I came with 9 + 4 = 13. And yes he left Appotommax Station in the morning of the 10th.

I agree with you and hope that Mr. Emerson will give some comments on this and tell us why he changed April 14 to April 13. Great find Linda!

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(11-05-2014 04:54 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Fascinating discussion! IMO the evidence the Grants arrived on the 13th is solid; the time of Robert Lincoln's arrival less so. As I stated above there is a letter held by the Huntington Library from Robert Lincoln to Judd Stewart dated May 14, 1919, in which Robert himself apparently states he arrived on the morning of the 14th. Are letters like this online anywhere? Is there a way to read this letter? Although written many, many years after the fact, I would still tend to think Robert would have a pretty clear memory of that time frame due to the tragedy that occurred at Ford's.

Eva, Jason Emerson (in his Robert bio) gives only a footnote to Julia Grant's description of the arrival, not a footnote to the date itself (#50). Regarding #49 the footnote points to Ulysses S. Grant's memoirs.

The New York Times of April 13, 1865 says that “The General was accompanied by the following members of his staff: Brevet Major-Gen. John A. Rawlins, Brig.-Gens. Dent. Ingalls and Williams. Cols. Babcock and Potter, Lieut.-Col. Parker, Major Leet, Capt. Boudinot and Lieut Dunn. The other members of the party were Assistant-Secretary Dana, Major-Gen. Meigs, Col. Hillyer, of New-York, and Cols. Pride and Barnard, of St. Louis.” No mention of Capt. Robert Lincoln. Because he was not a high ranking officer? He was still the President’s son! Mr. Emerson said in his book that Robert arrived with Grant (“Robert was included in the heroes’ welcome given for Grant and his retinue …”, p. 98/99).

(11-05-2014 06:03 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  The New York Times of April 13, 1865 says...

Kees, do you have access to the New York Herald of April 17, 1865? I do not know if that is online somewhere. Apparently (according to John S. Goff) that newspaper reported Robert Lincoln arrived the morning of the 14th.

Please note
http://www.c-span.org/video/?48940-3/rob...dd-lincoln
in which Mr. Emerson is talking about his book, the life and career of Robert Todd Lincoln (dated 11/17/11). At 30:00 mins he tells that Robert arrived with Grant, the morning of April 14 ...

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(11-05-2014 06:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-05-2014 06:03 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  The New York Times of April 13, 1865 says...

Kees, do you have access to the New York Herald of April 17, 1865? I do not know if that is online somewhere. Apparently (according to John S. Goff) that newspaper reported Robert Lincoln arrived the morning of the 14th.

Maybe this will help:

https://archive.org/details/newyorkherald18650417newy

and here is the pdf

https://archive.org/stream/newyorkherald...0/mode/2up

Great finds again, Kees!

(11-05-2014 04:54 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Eva, Jason Emerson (in his Robert bio) gives only a footnote to Julia Grant's description of the arrival, not a footnote to the date itself (#50). Regarding #49 the footnote points to Ulysses S. Grant's memoirs.

Thanks, Roger. So Mr. Emerson leaves us behind with no other sources than the Grants' accounts, which I would read rather the way Kees does.

No doubt IMO (also due to the Grants check-in at the Willard Hotel on April 13, plus the illumination) that the Grants arrived on April 13. Another thought - is it possible Robert spent one night somewhere else in Washington? (Unlikely, I admit...)

Kees, as for the M. Martin - according to this site, the M. is for MILTON Martin (and there are some nice pictures !):
http://rex-stewart.blogspot.de/2011/11/c...d.html?m=1

Roger, would/could you kindly please check another source in "Giant in the Shadow"? I can't get the horse off my mind, and had read about the following before, but not seen a source: On p.91is written that "his father ...also bought him a new horse". What source does Mr. Emeron refer to? (It's footnote #11 - many thanks!)

BTW, here are a photo of a 25$ check Lincoln gave to Robert on Feb.20 (plus info):
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?a...sses-grant
...and of his letter to Grant:
http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?a...odd-to-war

Well, there is also still the fascinating mystery about the letter Robert Lincoln wrote to Judd Stewart on May 14, 1919. Roger, may I ask from where the info comes that Robert himself apparently states he arrived on the morning of the 14th? (John S. Goff? I wish we could find this letter...)

Eva, #11 reads as follows:

RTL to Alice James, October 8, 1921, RTL Collection, Phillips Exeter Academy; Bullock, "President Lincoln's Visiting Card," 567, also in R.R. Wilson, Lincoln Among His Friends, 357-358.

Regarding the letter John S. Goff uses it in a footnote for his use of April 14th as the date of Robert's arrival in Washington. Prior to the release of Jason Emerson's wonderful book, John S. Goff's was considered the definitive biography of Robert T. Lincoln IMO.

It seems that the study of RTL is an historical enigma!

Unless I've missed something there is not an exact date mentioned of RTL's arrival at the wharf in Washington in the the New York Herald of April 17, 1865. Only this sentence: “His son, Captain Lincoln, breakfasted with him on Friday morning, having just returned from the capitulation of Lee …..”. What is the meaning of "just returned" ??? IMO could be Thursday April 13 late afternoon, or Friday April 14 early morning .... It's still my opinion he arrived the 13th......

   

Thank you so much, Roger!

(11-05-2014 09:28 AM)HerbS Wrote:  It seems that the study of RTL is an historical enigma!

Herb, I agree - I felt remembered of the recent discussion about Mary allegedly opposing the EP which Florence Stanley claimed to be told by Robert fro her "studies" (being the only source).

Kees, I agree that "just returned" doesn't tell anything - could be the entire day before as well.

Herb's post made me wonder about the following:

Robert desired to enlist because he wanted to see something of the war before it was over, and to save his face and standing towards his fellow students.

Actually he only got the jam of it, and this as he liked it. He wanted to see Richmond fall and, of course, was able to. He was at Appomattox. He was, of course, allowed to leave for the inauguration, and at all, was far away from any danger and "real war". He was still privileged overall. (Had he "deserted" - what punishment would he have received?)

Was his service appropriate to match these intentions? Was Robert fine with his "alibi position"? How serious were his ambitions - how anxious was he to actually fight on the battlefield and experience the inconvenient, dirty side of the war?

What are your thoughts on this? (Just to clarify: I do understand one doesn't want to enter the battlefield!)

(11-05-2014 03:15 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Herb's post made me wonder about the following:

Robert desired to enlist because he wanted to see something of the war before it was over, and to save his face and standing towards his fellow students.

Actually he only got the jam of it, and this as he liked it. He wanted to see Richmond fall and, of course, was able to. He was at Appomattox. He was, of course, allowed to leave for the inauguration, and at all, was far away from any danger and "real war". He was still privileged overall. (Had he "deserted" - what punishment would he have received?)

Was his service appropriate to match these intentions? Was Robert fine with his "alibi position"? How serious were his ambitions - how anxious was he to actually fight on the battlefield and experience the inconvenient, dirty side of the war?

What are your thoughts on this? (Just to clarify: I do understand one doesn't want to enter the battlefield!)

Eva, this is a difficult question, because you have to look in the brain of both, Lincoln and Robert. It is documented that Robert and his father did not always get along. I think this father-son-relationship is important and must be seen as the "root cause" of Robert's enlisting. There was certainly a difference in the relationship Lincoln had with his two "surviving" sons: Tad and Robert. Tad seemed to have a closer relationship with his father. Lincoln was also struggling with the grief in having lost two sons already, especially the loss of Willie. Although Robert “was feeling” that all, Lincoln and Robert loved each other and Lincoln was certainly proud of Robert. He was also attempting to protect Robert. And don’t forget that Lincoln also had to deal with the emotional pain of Mary. Robert vehemently confronted his father about his need to serve the Union Army, I think in the first place (unconsciously) to get more attention from his father, because Lincoln tried to do what he could to stop Robert from enlisting, also for fear that he would be killed, causing more pain to Mary. Maybe this (unconscious) struggle for attention of Robert against the fear of his parents was the main reason that Robert finally was serving as an adjutant to General Grant in a relatively safe and privileged position, at the front when the war was effectively over.

Kees, I wonder this solely from Robert's "mind" and point of view - not from his parents'. Ok, I try this wording: Would he have gone so far to go on the battlefield, or did he just dare to enlist because he knew he was safe?

(11-05-2014 04:40 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Kees, I wonder this solely from Robert's "mind" and point of view - not from his parents'. Ok, I try this wording: Would he have gone so far to go on the battlefield, or did he just dare to enlist because he knew he was safe?

Eva, the thoughts and feelings of others, including those closest to the person in question, are far from transparent. Nobody had the ability to read Robert's exact thoughts and feelings, so it’s in my opinion extremely tough to answer this question.

True,but,I think RTL was slick and cunning!

After the fall of Richmond, President Lincoln visited with Tad the fallen city on April 4, returning to City Point on April 5. Mary Todd Lincoln visited the fallen city with Elizabeth Keckley on April 6. But did Robert Lincoln visit the city? As far as I know he did NOT. Or slipped this through the cracks of history, because it was squeezed into those final busy days in April 1865? If Robert did visit the city, just before departing to Washington, it would declare why he was not on Grant’s dispatch boat and arrived a couple of hours later. Thank you Laurie, it was a good thought to suggest that. And thank you Eva, by writing that Robert "wanted to see Richmond fall". Maybe he also "wanted to see Richmond after the fall", just like his father, mother and Tad. Does someone know more?

(11-05-2014 03:15 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Robert desired to enlist because he wanted to see something of the war before it was over, and to save his face and standing towards his fellow students.

Hi Eva. I recall reading somewhere that Robert wanted to enlist in the army at the very beginning of the war. Throughout his years at Harvard he always wanted to quit school and join the army. This was a continuing and ongoing desire of his. Offhand I cannot recall where I read this - possibly somewhere in Elizabeth Keckly's book. Not sure, though.