(10-21-2014 08:53 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  

(10-21-2014 07:39 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(10-21-2014 04:06 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  

(10-20-2014 05:35 PM)HerbS Wrote:  Loetar44,You certainly know how to"push the envelope"!

I always want to find the edge ... the end of what is known.

That's cool, Kees (love challenging questions) - I guess that reveals the precision of the maths teacher...totally off the topic (sorry), but growing up at the Dutch border, I had a Dutch physics and maths teacher, and I'll never forget how he worded the theory of relativity: if you go somewhere faster than the light you arrive before you left...

BTW, it really makes me feel good to experience not being the only one on this side of the ocean who is interested in and gives so much (freetime) for all these topics. It makes no sense to try to share or even explain anyone in my environment why one is interested in all this. The pitiful question that usually comes is: "Do you HAVE to do that for your JOB?"

Thanks Eva, but like Einstein I use to say: “I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.”

I know what you mean, I’ve a lot of people who don’t understand my passion for Lincoln and American history. But this is food for my brain and I understand that not everyone shares my tastes in food. So I can easily live with it.

I agree 100% on the "food for my brain" - love the comparison! And curiousity is I believe what makes us move the most!

Mary Todd Lincoln: Her Life and Letters, includes a letter that Mary Lincoln wrote to Schuyler Colfax (Speaker of the House) dated April 13, 1865 inviting him to the theater that evening. The footnote to the letter states that, "It has been generally assumed that the performance to which Mrs. Lincoln had invited Speaker Colfax and General Grant was the fateful one at Ford's Theatre, yet the date on the above letter (and the presumed date on the one which follows) is April 13, and Mrs. Lincoln wrote 'this evening.' There is no way of accounting for this discrepancy except Mrs. Lincoln's habit of misdating letters. Neither Grant nor Colfax accepted the invitation: Colfax was about to leave for a trip West, and Mrs. Grant, it has been said, did not, after City Point, choose to spend an evening with Mrs. Lincoln."

The first letter to Schuyler Colfax dated April 13, 1865:

"It appears to have been arranged, (without Mr. Lincoln's knowledge, that you were to accompany us, to the theatre this evening) that Gen. Grant & staff, were to occupy the box usually assigned to us, therefore I shall have to waive, all ceremony & request you to accompany us some other evening soon..."

The second letter to Schuyler Colfax:

"Since sending you my note, I have found that Gen Grant's staff will not be seated with him, therefore, with much pleasure, I will send the carriage at 7 o'clock..."

Mary Todd Lincoln: Her Life and Letters, Justin G. Turner, Linda Levitt Turner

Does this mean that Grant would not have had security with him had he gone to Ford's that night?

I don't know, Linda, (it appears he wouldn't, though, if Mary's note is accurate) but this brought another question into my mind. Is there any record of the conversation between Mary and Grant as they rode together in the carriage on the night of the 13th (for the grand illumination)? Did Mary talk to Grant about going to the theater the next night? If she did then Ulysses and Julia might have talked about it when they met back in their room at the Willard later that night. Is it possible the Grants were working on "excuses" as early as the night of April 13th?

(10-22-2014 04:13 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  I don't know, Linda, (it sure appears he wouldn't, though, if Mary's note is accurate) but this brought another question into my mind. Is there any record of the conversation between Mary and Grant as they rode together in the carriage on the night of the 13th (for the grand illumination)? Did Mary talk to Grant about going to the theater the next night? If she did then Ulysses and Julia might have talked about it when they met back in their room at the Willard later that night. Is it possible the Grants were working on "excuses" as early as the night of April 13th?

I haven't seen any record of the conversation between Mary and Grant but you bring up a good point about when it was decided that they go to the theater Friday night, Roger. Mary wrote it was arranged that Grant & staff would occupy the box that evening. Since she mentions that Lincoln didn't know that Colfax was already invited, perhaps it was Lincoln who issued the invitation to Grant when he saw him Thursday night.

Here's a letter that Mary wrote to Grant on April 13.

"General Grant -
"Mr. Lincoln is indisposed with quite a severe headache, yet would be very much pleased to see you at the house, this evening about 8 o'clock & I want you to drive around with us to see the illumination!"

Thank you, Linda. I am beginning to think it's at least possible the Grants made up their minds on this invitation earlier than books say. I am thinking Mary and Grant probably discussed the Ford's Theatre show during their carriage ride at some point. Then Grant returned to the Willard Hotel after the ride. Julia returned to the Willard from the Stantons' reception. I am wondering if they just might have had a little discussion regarding the invitation the night of the 13th (before they retired for the night).

If the report is true that Mary Lincoln was ready to depart the carriage during the Illumination ride because Gen Grant was getting too much attention, maybe it was the General who made the decision to avoid any further engagements with the First Lady.

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While looking up Adam Badeau, Gen. Grant's aide and journalist (and friend of the Booths), I found his reminiscences on the ordeals with Mrs. Lincoln at City Point in March of 1865: http://www.physical-lincoln.com/wiki/Mar...oint,_1865

Just returning from a short vacation I saw that there are no further comments on this topic. Is all said already?

(11-02-2014 01:35 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  Just returning from a short vacation I saw that there are no further comments on this topic. Is all said already?

You didn't miss much Kees with the exception of us had some technical problems. One day, I pulled up the symposium and it said "Welcome back Roger Norton"! I was going to take the opportunity to make some comments as Roger such as "Lincoln deserved it!", but I didn't want to risk running afoul with the "man behind the curtain".

William S. McFeely writes in “Grant, A Biography” on page 211:

“Robert Lincoln was already at City Point. His father had asked Grant if his son , who had just graduated from Harvard, might not have a chance to see a bit of the war, and Robert was serving on Grant’s staff. He brought the word to the Grant’s cabin at City Point that his parents and brother had arrived on the River Queen, which stood off the point in the James River. The Grants went at once to call on the Lincolns, and as the men went off together, Julia Grant feeling ill at ease, was left alone in small quarters with Mary Lincoln. Mrs. Lincoln had gotten up to greet her, and now Julia, as unobtrusively as possible, sat down on the small sofa on which Mrs. Lincoln had been sitting. Only when she looked up and saw the disapproval on Mrs. Lincoln’s face did she realize, too late, that she should not have seated herself while the president’s wife was standing. She started up with a apology, but was beckoned back with belated graciousness by Mrs. Lincoln, who sat down on the sofa as well. The two women were jammed together in discomfort and silence. After an eternal second or two, Julia rose and “quietly took a chair near her.”

Julia and Mary were indeed no friends.

Loetar44,your account of MTL+JG speaks volumes about thier relationship!

(10-09-2014 02:41 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  General Horace Porter described in “Campaigning with Grant” (1897) how John Wilkes Booth observed Julia Grant in the dining room of the Willard Hotel, how Booth shadowed Grant , how an assassin (???) was foiled by the locked door of Grant’s railcar, how Grant received the message of the assassination of Lincoln and how Grant’s journey was interrupted :

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The President and Mrs. Lincoln invited the general and Mrs. Grant to go to Ford's Theater and occupy a box with them to see “Our American Cousin.” The general said he would be very sorry to have to decline, but that Mrs. Grant and he had made arrangements to go to Burlington, New Jersey, to see their children, and he feared it would be a great disappointment to his wife to delay the trip. The President remarked that the people would be so delighted to see the general that he ought to stay and attend the play on that account. The general, however, had been so completely besieged by the people since his arrival, and was so constantly the subject of outbursts of enthusiasm, that it had become a little embarrassing to him, and the mention of a demonstration in his honor at the theater did not appeal to him as an argument in favor of going.

A note was now brought to him from Mrs. Grant expressing increased anxiety to start for Burlington on the four o'clock train, and he told the President that he must decide definitely not to remain for the play. It was probably this declination which saved the general from assassination, as it was learned afterward that he had been marked for a victim. It was after two o'clock when he shook Mr. Lincoln's hand and said good-by to him, little thinking that it would be an eternal farewell, and that an appalling tragedy was soon to separate them forever. Their final leave-taking was only thirteen months after their first meeting, but during that time their names had been associated with enough momentous events to fill whole volumes of a nation's history.

The general went at once to his rooms at the hotel. As soon as he entered Mrs. Grant said to him: “When I went to my lunch to-day, a man with a wild look followed me into the dining-room, took a seat nearly opposite to me at the table, stared at me continually, and seemed to be listening to my conversation.” The general replied: “Oh, I suppose he did so merely from curiosity.” In fact, the general by this time had become so accustomed to having people stare at him and the members of his family that such acts had ceased to attract his attention. About half-past 3 o'clock the wife of General Rucker called with her carriage to take the party to the Baltimore and Ohio railroad-station. It was a two-seated top-carriage. Mrs. Grant sat with Mrs. Rucker on the back seat. The general, with true republican simplicity, sat on the front seat with the driver. Before they had gone far along Pennsylvania Avenue, a horseman who was riding in the same direction passed them, and as he did so peered into the carriage. When Mrs. Grant caught sight of his face she remarked to the general: “That is the same man [499] who sat down at the lunch-table near me. I don't like his looks.” Before they reached the station the horseman turned and rode back toward them, and again gazed at them intently. This time he attracted the attention of the general, who regarded the man's movements as singular, but made light of the matter so as to allay Mrs. Grant's apprehensions.

On their arrival at the station, they were conducted to the private car of Mr. Garrett, then president of the Baltimore and Ohio railway company. Before the train reached Baltimore a man appeared on the front platform of the car, and tried to get in; but the conductor had locked the door so that the general would not be troubled with visitors, and the man did not succeed in entering. The general and Mrs. Grant drove across Philadelphia about midnight from the Broad street and Washington Avenue station to the Walnut street wharf on the Delaware River, for the purpose of crossing the ferry and then taking the cars to Burlington. As the general had been detained so long at the White House that he was not able to get luncheon before starting, and as there was an additional ride in prospect, a stop was made at Bloodgood's Hotel, near the ferry, for the purpose of getting supper. The general had just taken his seat with Mrs. Grant at the table in the supper-room when a telegram was brought in and handed to him. His whereabouts was known to the telegraph people from the fact that he had sent a message to Bloodgood's ordering the supper in advance. The general read the despatch, dropped his head, and sat in perfect silence.

Then came another, and still another despatch, but not a word was spoken. Mrs. Grant now broke the silence by saying: “Ulyss, what do the telegrams say? Do they bring any bad news?” “I will read them to you,” the general replied in a voice which betrayed his emotion; “but first prepare yourself for the most painful and startling news that could be received, and control your feelings so as not to betray the nature of the despatches to the servants.” He then read to her the telegrams conveying the appalling announcement that Mr. Lincoln, Mr. Seward, and probably the Vice-President, Mr. Johnson, had been assassinated, and warning the general to look out for his own safety. A special train was at once ordered to take him back to Washington, but finding that he could take Mrs. Grant to Burlington (less than an hour's ride), and return to Philadelphia nearly as soon as his train could be got ready, he continued on, took her to her destination, returned to Philadelphia, and was in Washington the next morning.

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Grant took his family to Burlington in 1864 to avoid the war’s physical conflict. Mrs. Grant and her children lived at 309 Wood Street. But does someone know how long Grant and his wife did not see their children? Weeks? Months? A year? I remember having read somewhere that Gen. Grant had visited his family the last time prior to his victories at the Battles of the Wilderness (was that May 1864 ???).

Kees:

The Battle of the Wilderness was fought from May 5 to May 7, 1864, and was no Union victory. This was the first time Grant went head-to-head with Lee and he lost. He took 17,500 casualties to Lee's 11,500. The Battle of Spotsylvania Court House which followed, however (May 7 through May 19) was a Union victory, though a Pyrrhic one.

John