Very insightful Jim-thank you for posting that.

(09-01-2012 07:49 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Very insightful Jim-thank you for posting that.

My daughter died over 25 years ago from cancer. Without the support of family and friends, the Garrett family dynamics would have turned out much differently. You absolutely have to look at the positive things that come out of these deep dark tunnels you go through in life. If our daughter had survived, we would not have had our youngest.

I doubt that the Lincolns had much of a support system. The few who did try to console MTL, found her beyond ability to accept help.

In the book Lincoln A Life Of Purpose And Power by Richard Carwardine, a chapter is devoted to Lincoln's Inner Power (as he calls it). Lincoln's religious life is examined. Of special note to me was his mention of Lincoln's "determinism." Here is an excerpt from page 39 of the book:

On one feature of Lincoln's thought there was no disagreement, Lincoln described himself as a lifelong fatalist, and none demurred. "What is to be will be," he told Congressman Isaac Arnold. "I have found all my life as Hamlet says: 'There's a divinity that shapes our ends, Rough-hew them how we will." Mary Todd heard that formulation many times, for as she confirmed to Herndon, Lincoln's "maxim and philosophy was- 'What is to be will be and no cares of ours can arrest the decree.'

"Death of Lincoln's son led family to Presbyterian church"

Article here.

Okay, you've all lured me into your small community with the evident civility with which you express yourselves. Religious belief is such a tender area of anyone's existence, and yes, I think faith can move from the shallows to the deep with our experiences and study. I don't think we can fathom what it truly means to suffer the loss of a child like Abe and Jim Garrett unless we ourselves have experienced it. I've only observed it from the sidelines when a very close friend lost her son.

She too passed into Glory two months ago, and I believe the comfort my Christian faith affords was brought clear as I shared news of her passing with the members of my local church. I began saying, "I lost a friend a few days ago", and then caught myself and went on to say, "No I haven't. I know exactly where she is". Perhaps Abe was able to hold onto that comfort of seeing those he loved again. Whether he maintained a formal membership in a particular local church or not is not bothersome to me. Although I treasure the way the members of our church hold each other up in prayer, and offer other means of support, I think maturity in faith can provide the knowledge that we can fall into the arms of a loving God as well. I hope I'm not getting TOO churchy. I'd hate to wear out my welcome this soon.

Dear Dr.

I appreciate your comments and share the values you graciously stated, as do many of the members of this forum. Lincoln's faith and belief in God was an important part of his life in his later years, (I believe it helped to make the unbearable, bearable. Why should it be any different for us? That is one thing we can have in common with this great man.

Dr. Todd and Gene: Right on!

Beautifully stated by both of you. This from someone who has let the CHURCH part of her life lapse, but still continues her FAITH. To me, it's how we treat one another that our higher being is concerned with, and that is how we should judge Mr. Lincoln. Somewhere in my Episcopal prayer book or liturgy there is a phrase similar to this: Faith is an outward and physical symbol of an inward and spiritual grace.

BTW: Dr. Todd, I believe that I communicated with you several years ago in requesting and receiving permission to print your family letters in an issue of the Surratt Courier that is produced by Surratt House Museum. It is so very nice to welcome you onboard this forum.

(11-17-2012 06:35 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Beautifully stated by both of you. This from someone who has let the CHURCH part of her life lapse, but still continues her FAITH. To me, it's how we treat one another that our higher being is concerned with, and that is how we should judge Mr. Lincoln. Somewhere in my Episcopal prayer book or liturgy there is a phrase similar to this: Faith is an outward and physical symbol of an inward and spiritual grace.

BTW: Dr. Todd, I believe that I communicated with you several years ago in requesting and receiving permission to print your family letters in an issue of the Surratt Courier that is produced by Surratt House Museum. It is so very nice to welcome you onboard this forum.

Hello again. When doing my research on my family tree, I'll go fishing on the internet to see if anything new or unnoticed pops up. A link to a forum page mentioning the Surratt House Museum was listed, and I couldn't help but think of our communication back then.

Thanks for the welcome. I've seen nothing but respectful exchanges here, and having been administrator of a friend's BBS back in the day when the internet was all text and no photos, I recognize that that's no small accomplishment by the moderators here.

As someone who hasn't hidden the fact that I'm strongly agnostic leaning toward outright atheism, I realize I'm in a minority both here and in the population at large, but I've always accepted that fact and deal with it. Even though I strongly admire the work of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, I also realize that many people have gotten real comfort from their faith. That I get the same comfort from listening to Mozart or Beethoven just means that my way is different.

It's easy to take a subject like Lincoln and put our own views and biases on his back, but that only does all involved a disservice. My goal isn't to prove that Lincoln was this or that, but rather to try and grasp the complexity of the man and to accept that just one aspect of his character tells us nothing about the whole man. Of course there are disagreements here between people, but the underlying respect which also resides here does much to palliate any troubles which might spring up.

Best
Rob

(11-18-2012 12:59 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  As someone who hasn't hidden the fact that I'm strongly agnostic leaning toward outright atheism, I realize I'm in a minority both here and in the population at large, but I've always accepted that fact and deal with it. Even though I strongly admire the work of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, I also realize that many people have gotten real comfort from their faith. That I get the same comfort from listening to Mozart or Beethoven just means that my way is different.

It's easy to take a subject like Lincoln and put our own views and biases on his back, but that only does all involved a disservice. My goal isn't to prove that Lincoln was this or that, but rather to try and grasp the complexity of the man and to accept that just one aspect of his character tells us nothing about the whole man. Of course there are disagreements here between people, but the underlying respect which also resides here does much to palliate any troubles which might spring up.

Best
Rob

It's true that we need to be careful about attempting to set opinion up as fact. You're correct. That would be a disservice. I HOPE I made myself clear by stating the word "perhaps" in my reply.

Although it's true that our (yours, mine and Lincoln's) beliefs, whether they be in science or a Creator, are one aspect of our character, I would think they flavor our thought processes and choices made. Yes? I have a couple good friends who also share your atheistic beliefs. We have some good discussions while respecting each other's right to be wrong...lol.

Dr. Todd,

To be honest, I can't say that it does in my case. All my skepticism points to is that I find religion and faith to be irrelevant in my life. In my experience I would be hard pressed to think of something outside that realm that my lack of faith has informed. However, I do think that to those who have faith, it certainly is possible, and maybe even probable, that it could. I grew up in an evangelical church where everything, and I mean everything, was seen through the prism of God.

By the way, if I didn't say it earlier, welcome to the board.

Best
Rob

(11-18-2012 07:46 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Dr. Todd,

To be honest, I can't say that it does in my case. All my skepticism points to is that I find religion and faith to be irrelevant in my life. In my experience I would be hard pressed to think of something outside that realm that my lack of faith has informed. However, I do think that to those who have faith, it certainly is possible, and maybe even probable, that it could. I grew up in an evangelical church where everything, and I mean everything, was seen through the prism of God.

By the way, if I didn't say it earlier, welcome to the board.

Best
Rob

Thanks for the welcome Rob. I guess what I was shooting for was that while my thinking would involve a Christian paradigm, yours would most likely be Humanist in nature. I strive to take action based on serving God BY serving man. HOW you and I may go about doing that may be very similiar.

I've always told my adult Bible study attendees that the problem with churches (vs THE Church), is that there are people in them. You used the phrase, "seen through the prism of God". Actually, that's not a bad deal if we remember that the Bible says, "God is love". We humans just seem to screw that up...sigh

Just read this interesting passage and thought I would share it with you...

He was a complete picture of dejection. Mrs Lincoln, observing his troubled look, asked:
"Where have you been, father?"
"To the War Departmment," was the brief, almost sullen answer.
"Any news?"
"Yes, plenty of news, but no good news. It is dark, dark everywhere."

He reached forth one of his long arms, and took a small Bible from a stand near the head of the sofa, opened the pages of the holy book, and soon was absorbed in reading them. A quarter of an hour passed, and on glancing at the sofa the face of the President seemed more cheerful. The dejected look was gone, and the countenance was lighted up with new resolution and hope. The change was so marked that I could not but wonder at it, and wonder led to the desire to know what book of the Bible afforeded so much comfort to the reader. Making the search for a missing article an excuse, I walked gently around the sofa, and looking into the open book, I discovered that Mr. Linclon was reading that divine comforter, Job. He read with Christian eagerness, and the courage and hope that he derived from the inspired pages made him a new man. I almost imagined that I could hear the Lord speaking to him from out of the whirlwind of battle: "Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me". What a sublime picture was this! A ruler of a mighty nation going to the pages of the Bible with simple Christian earnestness for comfort and courage, and finding both in the darkest hour of a nation's calamity.

from "Behind the Scenes in The Lincoln White House" by Elizabeth Keckley

Mrs Keckley was Mrs. Lincoln's dressmaker. An interesting woman with an interesting story to tell.
When I finish reading it, I will put some comments in the book section

Gene, thank you for sharing this. Without question Mrs. Keckly's book has intimate details about the Lincolns that cannot be found in any other source.