Many thanks, Rob.

Here are Charles Sumner's words:

"The Proclamation was not signed till after three hours of handshaking on New Year's Day, when the President found that his hand trembled so that he held the pen with difficulty. The enemy would say, - naturally enough, in signing such a document. But it is done, and the act will be firm throughout time."

Very good Rob, I'm impressed.
(How's Droopy doing?)

(09-04-2014 10:57 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Sorry, Roger, mea culpa, shame on me. I copied something wrong when I looked this up originally for another recent post. Here's the correct Carpenter account (and the sentence is not therein):

No shame at all, Eva! Your research, as always, is amazing. The gist of what both men report is the same even if the words are not identical.

(09-04-2014 10:39 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  http://books.google.com/books?id=CgALAAA...&q&f=false

In the search box at left type in "597" which will take you to the letter.

Best
Rob

There are a couple of other letters that appear on page 596 of this book “Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society, Volume 44” that are worthy of consideration on this topic of discussion.

On Christmas Day 1862, Charles Sumner wrote to George Livermore:

“Last evening the President referred to your book – said that his copy was mislaid, and that he wished to consult it now. I told him at once that he should have my copy, and I have accordingly sent it to him this Xmas morning.”

“The President is occupied on the Proclamation. He will stand firm. He said to me that it was hard to drive him from a position which he had once taken.”

[This last statement was made by President Abraham Lincoln to Charles Sumner on Christmas Eve of 1862 – eight days before President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.]

On December 28, 1862, Charles Sumner again wrote to George Livermore:

“On my return from a protracted interview with the President about the Proclamation, I found your note, which I have enclosed to him with the expression of a hope that he will be able to gratify you, at least in part.

The President says he would not stop the Proclamation if he could, and he could not if he would.”

[This last statement was made by President Abraham Lincoln to Charles Sumner five days before President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.]

The first two paragraphs of the letter that Charles Sumner wrote to George Livermore on January 9, 1863, read as follows:

“I read to the President your letter on the pen, and then handed it to him. He said he would accept it as your answer, so that you need not trouble yourself to write again.

The Proclamation was not signed till after three hours of hand-shaking on New Year’s Day, when the President found that his hand trembled so that he held the pen with difficulty. The enemy would say, -- naturally enough, in signing such a document. But it is done, and the act will be firm throughout time.”

[The reference to pen is explained in an entry to the Massachusetts Historical Society’s book on page 596, just before the January 9, 1863 letter.]

“Sumner asked Lincoln to take note of the pen he used on that occasion and to reserve it for his friend in whose work on colored persons and their rights he had been interested. This the President did and Livermore duly acknowledged.”

I must add a somewhat comical side note regarding the pen. It is from Dr. Guelzo’s book, at page 303, footnote 41: Lincoln told Isaac Arnold that Sumner had stopped at the White House later that afternoon to retrieve the promised pen, and “out of the half a dozen on my table, I gave him the one I had most probably used.” Arnold, “Lincoln and the Overthrow of Slavery,” p. 304.

I wonder if Lincoln informed Sumner of his own uncertainty regarding the pen used by him to sign the Emancipation Proclamation.

Thanks Rob, Roger, and David especially for adding this:

(09-04-2014 11:58 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  “The President is occupied on the Proclamation. He will stand firm. He said to me that it was hard to drive him from a position which he had once taken.”
[...Abraham Lincoln to Charles Sumner...eight days before President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.]
The President says he would not stop the Proclamation if he could, and he could not if he would.”

[...Abraham Lincoln to Charles Sumner five days before President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.]

What Carpenter wrote reads as follows:
P.87:
"The final Proclamation was signed on New-Year's Day, 1863. The President remarked to Mr. Colfax, the same evening, that the signature appeared somewhat tremulous and uneven. 'Not,' said he, 'because of any uncertainty or hesitation on my part; but it was just after the public reception, and three hours hand-shaking is not calculated to improve a man's chirography.' Then changing his tone, he added: 'The South had fair warning, that if they did not return to their duty, I should strike at this pillar of their strength. The promise must now be kept, and I shall never recall one word.'”

P.269/270:
"The roll containing the Emancipation Proclamation was taken to Mr. Lincoln at noon on the first day of January, 1863, by Secretary Seward and his son Frederick. As it lay unrolled before him, Mr. Lincoln took a pen, dipped it in the ink, moved his hand to the place for the signature, held it a moment, then removed his hand and dropped the pen. After a little hesitation he again took up the pen and went through the same movement as before. Mr. Lincoln then turned to Mr. Seward and said: 'I have been shaking hands since nine o'clock this morning, and my right arm is almost paralyzed. If my name ever goes into history it will be for this act, and my whole soul is in it. If my hand trembles when I sign the Proclamation, all who examine the document hereafter will say, 'He hesitated.'' He then turned to the table, took up the pen again, and slowly, firmly, wrote Abraham Lincoln, with which the whole world is now familiar."

(09-04-2014 10:39 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  "The signature looks a little tremulous," Lincoln admitted to Speaker of the House Schuyler Colfax "and other friends that night," but "not because of any uncertainty or hesitation on my part." It was rather exhaustion: "Three hours' hand-shaking is not calculated to improve a man's chirography." Whatever the state of his hand, "my resolution was firm. . . . Not one word of it will I ever recall."

Thanks, David - could you possibly check what the original source for Lincoln's verbatim words is? Schuyler Colfax perhaps? Many thanks for any further info on this!

Just to assure the Seward quote in my previous post is correct:
   
Well then, there are three, perhaps four (depending on the source for the quote above) different accounts that similarly claim firmness. Is it likely Sumner would have made this just up in his contemporaneous correspondence? As for the other gentlemen, since their wording, even if not literally similar, sounds quite alike - would Seward have copied from Carpenter while knowing this was wrong (as Seward had been present)?

So, despite the mysterious Florence W. Stanley, do we yet have any other hint or evidence for him not being firm at that time?

(09-04-2014 05:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(09-04-2014 10:39 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  "The signature looks a little tremulous," Lincoln admitted to Speaker of the House Schuyler Colfax "and other friends that night," but "not because of any uncertainty or hesitation on my part." It was rather exhaustion: "Three hours' hand-shaking is not calculated to improve a man's chirography." Whatever the state of his hand, "my resolution was firm. . . . Not one word of it will I ever recall."

Thanks, David - could you possibly check what the original source for Lincoln's verbatim words is? Schuyler Colfax perhaps? Many thanks for any further info on this!

I quoted verbatim from Dr. Guelzo's book on page 183. The footnote reference to this quote cites 4 references: 1) Colfax, Life and Principles of Abraham Lincoln, Delivered in the Court House Square, at South Bend, April 24, 1865 (Philadelphia: James B. Rodgers, 1865), pp. 16-17; Carpenter, Six Months at the White House, p. 87; Eberstadt, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, pp. 15-16, 17; Welles, diary entry for January 1, 1863, in Diary of Gideon Welles, volume one, p. 212.

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(09-04-2014 05:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  So, despite the mysterious Florence W. Stanley, do we yet have any other hint or evidence for him not being firm at that time?

I do not understand this statement. The Florence Stanley letter alleges that Mary Todd Lincoln tried to dissuade Lincoln from signing the Emancipation Proclamation both on the night before and the morning of the day President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation. If the story is true, she decisively failed.

If the Florence Stanley letter is factually correct, I regret that Mrs. Stanley did not include in her letter the arguments made by Mary Todd Lincoln and the responses thereto by her husband, President Abraham Lincoln.

What "hint or evidence" did you see in Mrs. Stanley's letter to make you conclude that President Lincoln was not "firm at that time" in his conviction that he would sign the Emancipation Proclamation on New Year's Day of 1863?

I think the point that Eva was making is that Florence Stanley is a spurious individual that experts in the field cannot verify as having been in contact with Robert Lincoln concerning this matter. Instead of taking her letter as gospel, Eva wants to know what other sources have found similar evidence that Mr. Lincoln faltered somewhat before signing the Proclamation.

(09-05-2014 01:17 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  The footnote reference to this quote cites 4 references: 1) Colfax, Life and Principles of Abraham Lincoln, Delivered in the Court House Square, at South Bend, April 24, 1865 (Philadelphia: James B. Rodgers, 1865), pp. 16-17; Carpenter, Six Months at the White House, p. 87; Eberstadt, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, pp. 15-16, 17; Welles, diary entry for January 1, 1863, in Diary of Gideon Welles, volume one, p. 212.

MANY thanks, David!!! I'm so curious what exactly Welles wrote in his diary and Colfax said in his speech - looks as if there were two more contemporaries independently confirming Lincoln's firmness!

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(09-05-2014 01:17 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  What "hint or evidence" did you see in Mrs. Stanley's letter to make you conclude that President Lincoln was not "firm at that time" in his conviction that he would sign the Emancipation Proclamation on New Year's Day of 1863?

Abraham Lincoln's reply ("I am under orders, I cannot do otherwise") to me implies he himself was opposed to what he was doing and just acting against his will due to "orders". A firm reply IMO would have been something like Seward recalled him saying: "I never in my life felt more certain that I was [will be] doing right, than I [will] do in signing this paper." I believe he was firm, and I'm sceptic the quote is reliable.

As Linda found out, and Mr. Brewster confirmed, Mrs. Stanley's letter will be mentioned in Mr. Brewster's book, and I assume he drew exactly this conclusion (that the reply was perhaps a sign of insecurity). Just to clarify (and repeat): I am sceptical of Mrs. Stanley's claim as I believe Lincoln was firm, and for the reason Laurie stated.

Colfax: "Life and Principles of Abraham Lincoln" pp. 16-17, reads:
"...he said to me and other friends that night: 'The signature looks a little tremulous, for my hand was tired, but my resolution was firm...Not one word of it will I ever recall.'" Welles' diary doesn't tell any such details.

IMO, at some point shortly before signing the Proclamation, Mr. Lincoln had to have doubts about what he was doing. Signing that edict changed the purpose of the war for both Union folks (who had signed on to save the country, not free the slaves) and Confederates (who now realized that it was full scale war against their way of life).

The border states had been told they could keep their slaves or be compensated for freeing them. The door was left open to this, but those in the know had to realize that that was not going to hold true. I'm sure even the abolitionists and the free men of color who were following the situation had to question how Lincoln was going to make this happen. Surely Mr. Lincoln had to question his own actions at some point before he "bit the bullet" and dipped his pen in ink.

This does not speak to the question being discussed, but it's a favorite quote of mine from John Nicolay. Regarding the Emancipation Proclamation, Nicolay wrote:

"And for this New Year's gift, the man who has wrought the work, amid the doubts of friends, the aspersions of foes, the clamors of faction, the cares of Government, the crises of war, the dangers of revolution, and the manifold temptations that beset moral heroes, Abraham Lincoln, the President of the United States, is entitled to the everlasting gratitude of a despised race enfranchised, the plaudits of a distracted country saved, and an inscription of undying fame in the impartial records of history."

(09-05-2014 03:22 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I think the point that Eva was making is that Florence Stanley is a spurious individual that experts in the field cannot verify as having been in contact with Robert Lincoln concerning this matter. Instead of taking her letter as gospel, Eva wants to know what other sources have found similar evidence that Mr. Lincoln faltered somewhat before signing the Proclamation.

It has just crossed my mind that the Florence Stanley anecdote (which only came to light some 70 years after it was supposed to have occurred) and the incident that has MTL allegedly distressing her husband and his audience by chattering loudly to her friends during his speech(also not mentioned until much later)-are equally murky and difficult to verify.

Yet both are cited as pretty much gospel by Highly Respected Lincoln Scholar Mr. Burlingame.

Coincidence?

I came upon this Lincoln quote in the Fehrenbachers' book. The authors give it a "C." It does not seem to support my personal opinion that Lincoln was firm and decisive, but I thought, in all fairness, I should post it. The quote's source is Reverend John McClintock. McClintock included the quote in a sermon preached on April 16, 1865. The conversation he had with Lincoln probably occurred in 1864.

"Ah, Providence is stronger than either you or I. When I issued that proclamation, I was in great doubt about it myself. I did not think that the people had been quite educated up to it, and I feared its effects upon the border states. Yet I think it was right. I knew it would help our cause in Europe, and I trusted in God and did it."

That sounds like the Lincoln that I understand...

Abraham Lincoln's reply ("I am under orders, I cannot do otherwise") to me implies he himself was opposed to what he was doing and just acting against his will due to "orders".

If there is any truth to this quote, it sounds to me as if AL is tired of being argued with, and if MTL wants to continue the contest she should take it up with God.