Love it, Gene, whoever said this! (Maybe it was Hans Christian Andersen when writing "The Emperor's New Clothes":
http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hershol...hes_e.html )

(06-30-2014 05:11 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 02:44 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  and also because Mary (some scholars think) had sustained injuries giving birth to Tad and had therefore given up conjugal relations.

Jean Baker is among those who disagree. Her reasoning is on p. 228 of her Mary bio.

Jean Baker doesn't discuss the question of separate bedrooms, however. But let's assume with Baker that the Lincolns' "physical intimacy" continued at the White House, and for the sake of argument further assume that they did in fact share the same White House bedroom. Would that much change the issues raised by Lincoln & Derickson sleeping together when Mary was out of town?

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(06-29-2014 08:08 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(06-28-2014 06:07 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  I must back up a bit in my reply to David Lockmiller, who wrote:

Yet, Professor David Herbert Donald states in his Pulitzer Prize winning book Lincoln at page 57: "[Lincoln] told Mrs. Bennett Abell, with whom he was staying, 'that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave.'"

As David says, it is indeed true that Donald, in Lincoln, endorsed the academic revival of the Ann Rutledge story. Absolutely true, and I apologize for casting doubt on David's observation. But there's a major twist here: Donald had changed his mind, and then changed it again. In his very first book, Lincoln's Herndon, his justly celebrated bio of Herndon, he ridiculed the Rutledge story, in Lincoln he reversed himself and accepted the story, and in "We Are Lincoln Men" he once again rejected it. (Incidentally: he gave Tripp partial credit for the final rejection.) Why did Donald go back and forth? That's way too complicated to get into here. The main point is that, after much thinking, David Donald concluded that the Rutledge story didn't happen, and based that conclusion to a large degree on Elizabeth Abell's statement that she knew nothing about a Lincoln/Rutledge love affair.

Then, if there was not a strong love relationship between Abraham Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, what possible explanation would Lincoln have made to Elizabeth Abell as to why "her (Ann's) death was a great shock to him." Elizabeth Arbell made this observation which continues as follows: "I never seen a man mourn for a companion more than he did for her[;] he made a remark one day when it was raining that he could not bare the idea of its raining on her Grave." Herndon's Informants at page 557.

You say that both you and "Flip-Flop" David Donald have "concluded that the Rutledge story didn't happen, and base[] that conclusion to a large degree on Elizabeth Abell's statement that she knew nothing about a Lincoln/Rutledge love affair." The exact words used by Elizabeth Abell in answer to Herndon's third question are these: "[T]he Courtship between him and Miss Rutledge I can say but little." Herndon's Informants at page 556. At least Elizabeth Abell knew that there was a "Courtship between [Mr. Abraham Lincoln] and Miss Rutledge." You and "Flip-Flop" Donald, in the end, will not even admit that.

There's an old saying that I believe is applicable here: "There are none so blind as those that will not see."

Abell's phrasing doesn't by a long shot mean that "she knew" that there was a courtship. One of the striking things about the testimony is that nobody, not even anyone in the Rutledge family, related an eyewitness memory of Lincoln courting Rutledge. Technically there was one exception, Lizzie Herndon Bell (a cousin of William Herndon's). Lizzie was two or three when Ann died, and quite a fanciful character to boot. The question of what people actually "knew" about Lincoln's relationship with Ann gets more & more tenuous the closer one examines it. Consider the case of James "Uncle Jimmy" Short, who lived within walking distance of the Rutledges at Sandridge, an area a few miles north of the New Salem. Lincoln came by to see him and the Rutledges every few days, according to Short. He never got an inkling that Lincoln was courting Ann. After Ann died in August, the Rutledges continued to live in the Sandridge house until the following spring. During that time Short continued to be their neighbor. He didn't recall any discussions with the family about Lincoln's relationship with the deceased.

Is it equally remotely possible that Derickson was there to help protect Lincoln's life? There had been attempts on Lincoln's life as he traveled back and forth to Washington.
(You could say he was working under cover )

You forgot to mention this one. I've read that Lamon sometimes used to sleep outside of Lincoln's bedroom at the foot of the door as he was concerned about Lincoln's safety. Now that's a bit out of the ordinary. Maybe he slipped inside when everyone else was asleep?

Sometimes we see what we want to see.

(06-29-2014 08:34 PM)Gene C Wrote:  

(06-28-2014 11:30 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  Hi Gene. Herndon's Informants: Letters, Interviews, and Statements about Abraham Lincoln (Douglas L. Wilson & Rodney O. Davis, eds.) appeared in 1998, five years after John Evangelist Walsh published The Shadows Rise: Abraham Lincoln and the Ann Rutledge Legend. It therefore doesn't appear in Walsh's bibliography.

My mistake, and a careless one at that. Herndon is listed in the bibliography, but not Herndon's Informants. Thanks for correcting my error.

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(06-29-2014 05:25 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  He had a dirty, I do mean dirty sense of humor.

I have heard he told a few smutty jokes or stories, but do you remember where you might have read this?

About Lincoln's dirty sense of humor. One famous observation came from a legal colleague, Henry Dummer, who said, "Lincoln had two characteristics: one of purity, and the other, as it were, an insane love of telling dirty and smutty stories." Herndon's Informants, 443. Observers pointed out that Lincoln's stories usually had a larger point that redeemed the ribaldry. This was lost on some of the officials Lincoln met in Washington. They couldn't believe that this Westerner president had a seemingly endless supply of off-color jokes. The guy was down to earth to say the least. He also, of course, wrote the finest prose in American civic history.

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(06-30-2014 07:49 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 02:44 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  . I think the correspondence between Lincoln & Speed is very telling; the most telling thing of all, actually. And everybody's heard about the four-year bed sharing above the Springfield store. Critics scoff that it was normal to share beds back then because mattresses were expensive. But for four years?

Your scaring me Lewis, I know people who let their dog sleep with them, and their mattress is over four years old.

Yeah yeah yeah. Gene, you asked about the Chronicles of Reuben. It's about two young men who "marry," have sex, and are surprised that they can't have a baby. Like everything else it doesn't make a conclusive case by itself, but it does add to the overall picture. It gives a sense that Lincoln had sex on his mind. This is a man who ran away from girls as an adolescent (his step-mother noticed) and didn't marry until 33. Something does not add up.

As I continue to read this thread a thought occurred to me. Mary Lincoln (whatever people's opinion of her might be) was an intelligent woman who was knowledgeable about and involved with her husband's life and career.

I can't help but believe that if AL was having "romantic" relationships with anyone else, whether she was there or not (ie. what some might hint at going on at Lincoln's Cottage at the soldier's home) she would have known or found out about it. I further believe that if Mary was aware that AL was having "romantic" relationships (whether with a man or woman) she would have addressed it with him quite plainly and probably in a way that would have been witnessed/heard by any number of other people. There have been cases identified where she became very distressed and jealous over what seem to be minor issues and I can't believe that she would have stayed with AL if something a more substantive infidelity was occurring or had occurred.

(06-30-2014 11:12 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  As I continue to read this thread a thought occurred to me. Mary Lincoln (whatever people's opinion of her might be) was an intelligent woman who was knowledgeable about and involved with her husband's life and career.

I can't help but believe that if AL was having "romantic" relationships with anyone else, whether she was there or not (ie. what some might hint at going on at Lincoln's Cottage at the soldier's home) she would have known or found out about it. I further believe that if Mary was aware that AL was having "romantic" relationships (whether with a man or woman) she would have addressed it with him quite plainly and probably in a way that would have been witnessed/heard by any number of other people. There have been cases identified where she became very distressed and jealous over what seem to be minor issues and I can't believe that she would have stayed with AL if something a more substantive infidelity was occurring or had occurred.

Good point. What did Mary know and if she did know something, why didn't she blow up with Lincoln conspicuously enough that people noticed? I don't have a good answer to that.

Excellent point, Scott.

As for the "Chronicles of Reuben", to be somewhat more precise:
It was a poem A. L. wrote about an incident when two of Aaron Grigby's brothers held a double-marriage and he wasn't invited. He arranged for the brothers to be brought to the wrong bedrooms after the ceremony, where their brother's new wives awaited. The "Chronicles of Reuben" was named after one of the brothers, and goes as follows:

"I will tell you a Joke about Jewel and Mary
It is neither a Joke nor a Story
For Rubin and Charles has married two girls
But Billy has married a boy
The girlies he had tried on every Side
But none could he get to agree
All was in vain he went home again
And since that he's married to Natty

So Billy and Natty agreed very well
And mama's well pleased at the match
The egg it is laid but Natty's afraid
The Shell is So Soft that it never will hatch
But Betsy she said you Cursed bald head
My Suitor you never Can be
Beside your low crotch proclaims you a botch And that never Can answer for me."

Just chiming in...the idea that the Lincolns did not share a bed during their WH years has been disproven by two separate eyewitnesses on two separate occasions:

July 12 1861 "....it was 4am on July12, the sixth time that night that Lincoln was awoken by a knock on the door from Colonel Daniel Butterfield, his military secretary. Wearing nothing but a red flannel shirt, which he struggled to hold down in front him, Lincoln answered the door "Colonel, do you ever sleep"?..........the colonel apologized for yet another disturbance, but he was there under orders from General Scott. Lincoln explained that his dressing gown was twisted around his wife's feet and not wanting to wake her, he came out in his shirt instead. "Either I have grown too long or the shirt has grown too short, I know not which," he said, still struggling to hold the shirt down in front of him. (The President's War/Chris DeRose/ pg#91)

So, he was not only sharing a bed with MTL, he was apparently doing so in the nude on this particular occasion. If his dressing gown was tangled around the feet of his sleeping wife, where was his nightshirt? Why did he have to throw on a shirt(that he struggled to cover his modesty with?)

The other occasion is mentioned in Matthew Pinsker's "Lincoln's Sanctuary" when Captain Charles Derickson came to the Soldier's Home in the middle of the night in July 1863 with a message for the president which he delivered directly to Lincoln's bedroom and spoke to him with Mary lying beside him. Charles Derickson was ironically the son of David Derickson, who is alleged by some to have been AL's lover.

In separate letters to Mary Jane Welles and Elizabeth Dixon in the summer of 1865, several weeks after AL's murder, Mary lamented the loss of the man she said had been everything to her..." he was always my all...LOVER(emphasis mine) husband, father...truly, truly my ALL"(emphasis MTL) Leavitt and Turner/ Letters of Mary Todd Lincoln

If the sexual side of her marriage had been over for years, why did Mary make a point to refer to Lincoln as her lover(to two intimate friends) instead of simply calling him husband and father?

They slept in separate bedrooms in the WH and for the last few years of their time in Springfield, but their rooms were always conjoined. According to the memoirs of Emilie Todd Helm (Mary's sister) and Elizabeth Keckly, Lincoln could and did frequent his wife's bedroom and sitting rooms...and he never knocked before entering.

There is no real reason to believe that Lincoln and Mary did not enjoy regular conjugal relations.

In fact perhaps Mary shared his bed more than is believed, and Lincoln simply did not enjoy sleeping alone, which is why when Mary was not at the Summer Home with him Captain Derickson was invited to the place of honor, so to speak? In the White House he did not avail himself of cavalry during MTL's absences. Tad shared his father's bed.

Maybe he was lonely and preferred not to sleep alone.

And yes, Mary was insanely jealous. Everyone knows what happened at City Point when she saw a woman riding beside the president. If any unseemly gossip had reached her ears about AL's peculiar attention to David Derickson, she would have "reacted" to put it mildly.

(06-30-2014 10:11 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  One of the striking things about the [Abell's] testimony is that nobody, not even anyone in the Rutledge family, related an eyewitness memory of Lincoln courting Rutledge.

It is my understanding that there was at least one exception to your statement, and that exception was Mrs. Jeane Berry, sister of Ann Rutledge. Ida M. Tarbell wrote in her book The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln at page 218:

Many years ago a sister of Ann Rutledge, Mrs. Jeane Berry, told what she knew of Ann's love affairs; and her statement has been preserved in a diary kept by the Rev. R. D. Miller, now Superintendent of Schools of Menard County, with whom she had the conversation. She declared that Ann's "whole soul seemed wrapped up in Lincoln," and that they "would have been married in the fall or early winter" if Ann had lived. "After Ann died," said Mrs. Berry, "I remember that it was common talk about how sad Lincoln was; and I remember myself how sad he looked. They told me that every time he was in the neighborhood after she died, he would go alone to her grave and sit there in silence for hours.

I understand that you have a book that you are writing in which I believe that you will be making two related arguments 1) that there was really no significant love relationship between Abraham Lincoln and Ann Rutledge and 2) that Abraham Lincoln was gay.

Any evidentiary weakness within the first argument would undoudtedly weaken the second argument. I underlined, italicized, and bolded the most important parts so that you would not miss them.

Lewis, I am curious if you have an opinion about Lincoln's life on the circuit. I did read Dr. Tripp's book, but that was around 8 or 9 years ago, and I have forgotten if "the circuit" is addressed. Although Herndon did not travel the circuit often he apparently did on at least a few occasions. One thing Herndon says is that he once slept with 20 men in the same room. I realize the group was not always this large, but I think if Lincoln were looking for "opportunities" the circuit would have been one major place to look as he spent 20+ weeks absent from home each year traveling with other men. I know some of the men noted that Lincoln did not go home on weekends when the others did, but as far as I know, none ever said Lincoln was interested in other males in a sexual sense. Did Dr. Tripp comment on Lincoln's circuit riding days?

Hi Roger,

I found this tidbit about AL's circuit days in "Legends That Libel Lincoln" by Montgomery Lewis pg #143

".....Henry C. Whitney was a young lawyer who traveled the circuit with Lincoln, shared the same room with him in country taverns, frequently the same bed. He fully recognized Mrs. Lincoln's individual and personal shortcomings, but he believed that she was judged chiefly by these and not by her virtues which, in his own words "were hidden behind the sacred aegis of the domestic circle....but the world does not and cannot know much it is indebted to this lady that her distinguished husband's ambition was fired and stimulated to reach for the grand prize finally awarded to him, nor how much he was indebted to her for words of cheer-of hope-of comfort and solace, when all seemed dark...Lincoln thoroughly loved his wife. I had many reasons to know this in my intimacy with him, and she therefore wrought a great influence over him".

primary source "Life on the Circuit With Lincoln" Henry Whitney



[From my own knowledge and the information thus obtained, I therefore repeat, that the memory of Anne Rutledge was the saddest chapter in Mr. Lincoln's life.]///

Hi David Lockmiller,

I assume that you are quoting William Herndon with that statement above? If Herndon did say that, it's as demonstrably false as his incredible claim that Lincoln never signed his letters to Mary Todd Lincoln "affectionately". There are extant letters that prove otherwise.

The crucible of the Civil War presidency was the saddest chapter in Lincoln's life. And by Lincoln's own words, it was the loss of WILLIE LINCOLN that caused him the deepest, greatest pain he had ever known and "showed me my weakness as never before". By the way Lincoln said this to at least two people...artist Francis Bicknell Carpenter (Six Months At The White House) and army nurse Rebecca Pomroy in "Rise To Greatness: Abraham Lincoln and America's Most Perilous Year" by David Von Drehle.

I tend to believe the words from Lincoln's own mouth about which of his many personal losses hurt him most deeply, not William Herndon's guess/speculation/opinion.

(06-30-2014 12:22 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Lewis, I am curious if you have an opinion about Lincoln's life on the circuit. I did read Dr. Tripp's book, but that was around 8 or 9 years ago, and I have forgotten if "the circuit" is addressed. Although Herndon did not travel the circuit often he apparently did on at least a few occasions. One thing Herndon says is that he once slept with 20 men in the same room. I realize the group was not always this large, but I think if Lincoln were looking for "opportunities" the circuit would have been one major place to look as he spent 20+ weeks absent from home each year traveling with other men. I know some of the men noted that Lincoln did not go home on weekends when the others did, but as far as I know, none ever said Lincoln was interested in other males in a sexual sense. Did Dr. Tripp comment on Lincoln's circuit riding days?

I've wondered about this. In his book Tripp doesn't get into sexual opportunities on the circuit and I don't recall that we ever discussed it. Those crowded hostelry rooms couldn't have provided much of a venue; although stranger things have happened. There's one passage somewhere in HI from a former circuit rider who mentioned that Lincoln would sometimes slip away from his colleagues to wander around on his own. Of course, this was the barely tamed Wild West, dusty & empty, the towns were tiny, there couldn't have been much to see or many to meet. But who knows? Henry Whitney was a young circuit rider to whom Lincoln took a liking. It was he who recalled that Lincoln "over and over again" compared "sexual contact" to "the harp of a thousand strings." This suggests an expansive attitude about sex, beyond the confines of marriage. Was Lincoln trying to tell Whitney something? Evidently! But what, exactly? Whitney wrote a memoir, Life on the Circuit with Lincoln, in which he said that it was as if Lincoln "wooed me to close intimacy and familiarity" (p. 54). I suspect that this probably meant what it sounds like it means. You mention that Lincoln unlike his colleagues tended not to go home on weekends. The colleagues noticed this. Judge David Davis discussed it with Herndon & made a remark about domestic unhappiness (I'm too lazy to look it up just now). This is of course prime evidence for those who like to talk about a wobbly marriage. Something kept Lincoln out on the circuit in crude lodgings with bad food when the others went home to the missus. One could write a novel about it. But there's not much there there for the historian.

Yet, it was this same Henry Whitney who assures us of AL's "thorough" and complete love for his wife in this same "Life On The Circuit"?

To be perfectly honest, I did not take the "wooed me to close intimacy" remark to be a reference to anything sexual or romantic, it didn't even occur to me in fact. If Whitney had meant the remark to imply that AL had seduced him in the traditional sense, do you think he would have advertised the fact openly in a book?? In 19th century America where such behavior was deemed "unnatural" at best and criminal at worst? About the recently martyred 16th President? NO WAY.

I think he means AL confided personal, intimate information to him in a way that he did not normally do with people.

(06-30-2014 12:48 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi Roger,

I found this tidbit about AL's circuit days in "Legends That Libel Lincoln" by Montgomery Lewis pg #143

".....Henry C. Whitney was a young lawyer who traveled the circuit with Lincoln, shared the same room with him in country taverns, frequently the same bed. He fully recognized Mrs. Lincoln's individual and personal shortcomings, but he believed that she was judged chiefly by these and not by her virtues which, in his own words "were hidden behind the sacred aegis of the domestic circle....but the world does not and cannot know much it is indebted to this lady that her distinguished husband's ambition was fired and stimulated to reach for the grand prize finally awarded to him, nor how much he was indebted to her for words of cheer-of hope-of comfort and solace, when all seemed dark...Lincoln thoroughly loved his wife. I had many reasons to know this in my intimacy with him, and she therefore wrought a great influence over him".

primary source "Life on the Circuit With Lincoln" Henry Whitney



[From my own knowledge and the information thus obtained, I therefore repeat, that the memory of Anne Rutledge was the saddest chapter in Mr. Lincoln's life.]///

Hi David Lockmiller,

I assume that you are quoting William Herndon with that statement above? If Herndon did say that, it's as demonstrably false as his incredible claim that Lincoln never signed his letters to Mary Todd Lincoln "affectionately". There are extant letters that prove otherwise.

The crucible of the Civil War presidency was the saddest chapter in Lincoln's life. And by Lincoln's own words, it was the loss of WILLIE LINCOLN that caused him the deepest, greatest pain he had ever known and "showed me my weakness as never before". By the way Lincoln said this to at least two people...artist Francis Bicknell Carpenter (Six Months At The White House) and army nurse Rebecca Pomroy in "Rise To Greatness: Abraham Lincoln and America's Most Perilous Year" by David Von Drehle.

I tend to believe the words from Lincoln's own mouth about which of his many personal losses hurt him most deeply, not William Herndon's guess/speculation/opinion.

Toia: Whitney also wrote, as noted somewhere above: "I think he [Lincoln] would have been very fond of a wife had he had one to suit. But I also doubt if he would have been as great a man as he was." Gene noted that Whitney doesn't have the most sterling reputation, and consistency doesn't seem to have been his strong suit. I think he had conflicted feelings about Lincoln, and mixed motives for saying various things in published accounts.

(06-30-2014 12:14 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 10:11 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:  One of the striking things about the [Abell's] testimony is that nobody, not even anyone in the Rutledge family, related an eyewitness memory of Lincoln courting Rutledge.

It is my understanding that there was at least one exception to your statement, and that exception was Mrs. Jeane Berry, sister of Ann Rutledge. Ida M. Tarbell wrote in her book The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln at page 218:

Many years ago a sister of Ann Rutledge, Mrs. Jeane Berry, told what she knew of Ann's love affairs; and her statement has been preserved in a diary kept by the Rev. R. D. Miller, now Superintendent of Schools of Menard County, with whom she had the conversation. She declared that Ann's "whole soul seemed wrapped up in Lincoln," and that they "would have been married in the fall or early winter" if Ann had lived. "After Ann died," said Mrs. Berry, "I remember that it was common talk about how sad Lincoln was; and I remember myself how sad he looked. They told me that every time he was in the neighborhood after she died, he would go alone to her grave and sit there in silence for hours.

I understand that you have a book that you are writing in which I believe that you will be making two related arguments 1) that there was really no significant love relationship between Abraham Lincoln and Ann Rutledge and 2) that Abraham Lincoln was gay.

Any evidentiary weakness within the first argument would undoudtedly weaken the second argument. I underlined, italicized, and bolded the most important parts so that you would not miss them.

I have done some additional research on this issue and I intend to do more.

Professor Burlingame has added information from three other close relatives of Ann that you appear to have missed in your Lincoln scholarship research on this topic, Ann’s sisters -- Nancy and Sarah and her brother David. (See below Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol. One, page 99 - 100.)

“[A]ccording to Ann’s sister Nancy, ‘he [Lincoln] declared his love and was accepted for she loved him with a more mature and enduring affection than she had ever felt for McNamar. No one could have seen them together and not be convinced that they loved each other truly.’” (Source reference: Interview with Nancy Rutledge Prewitt, conducted by Margaret Flindt, Fairfield, Iowa, correspondence, 10 Feb., Chicago Inter-Ocean, 12 Feb. 1899.)

“Ann’s brother David urged her to marry Lincoln even before the return of her whilom fiancé, but she declined so that she could personally explain to McNamar her change of heart.” (Professor Burlingame did not provide a source reference in this instance.)

“According to her sister Sarah, Ann ‘had brain fever and was out of [her] head all the time till about two days before she died, when she came to herself and called for Abe.’ Bowling Green fetched Lincoln. When he arrived ‘everybody left the room and they talked together.’ Emerging from that room, Lincoln ‘stopped at the door and looked back. Both of them were crying.’ (Source reference: Sarah Rutledge Saunders, interview with Katherine Wheeler, Chicago Tribune Magazine, 22 Feb. 1922.)