I agree, Laurie. I truly think that if a band had been at the arsenal (Lemonade and Cake vendors aside) that someone would have remarked upon it. I really don't know what to make of the drummers now - unless it was just another instance of someone wanting to "get into the act" later by having the "fame" of having played at the execution. It could be true; it may not be. That the food vendors were recorded to me, proves that they were actually there - as "tasteless" as it may be....

[quote='L Verge' pid='34874' dateline='1403975628']
I see your point, but wouldn't mention of it have been made somewhere? The history of Ft. McNair from its earliest beginnings in the 1700s has been the subject of books on its own as well as related to the Civil War at the trial of the conspirators. If no one found records of a band there in 1865 in all that research, it would be fairly strange.
[/quote
I agree. Someone should have mentioned a brass band if there was one playing at the execution. But, if a band was there playing before the actual ritual of leading the prisoners out, one by one, would they ordinarily mention it? Maybe; of after the hanging? Maybe, if they felt like it. Bands were taken for granted. The writers of the day were listening to the sentence being read, and observing the demeanor of the condemned, not the band. So, I continue...............

(06-28-2014 01:30 PM)BettyO Wrote:  I agree, Laurie. I truly think that if a band had been at the arsenal (Lemonade and Cake vendors aside) that someone would have remarked upon it. I really don't know what to make of the drummers now - unless it was just another instance of someone wanting to "get into the act" later by having the "fame" of having played at the execution. It could be true; it may not be. That the food vendors were recorded to me, proves that they were actually there - as "tasteless" as it may be....

Here's my position. I don't mean to question anybody's past writing, but when it comes to finding regimental and other sized bands from 1861-66, I've been doing it full-time since 2004. By that I mean, I have a police retirement pension, and finding bands is what I do 40+ hours a week. This is an investigation to me. I take all the evidence found by previously, assume nothing, and start over from the beginning. It's like a dead case file. I find old, dead Civil War bandsmen. After 10 years, I have a pretty good handle on Civil War volunteer army rank structure, command, authority, military parlance of the day, where bandsmen came from, how/where/when they mustered in, how they were trained, what their duties were, how they transferred between units and states, what happened to them after they were sick/injured, when/how/where they mustered out. I've also discovered that while a tremendous amount of literature has been written about the Civil War & Lincoln, there are still entities/units etc., left untouched. The Veteran Reserve Corps is one. I've also discovered that there is so much written about one subject, that small things are assumed because "everyone knows." I'm still stuck on Bvt. Maj.Gen. Hartranft..."Special Provost and in charge of the prison..." Overall, yes for the purposes of the trial and execution, but Lt. Col. Newton Colby, 19th VRC, was in-charge of the Old Capitol Prison, from July 1864 thru July 1865. The prison had a hospital, and the duties of the Veteran Reserve Corps were to guard military prisons, draft rendezvous camps, military hospitals etc. The prison housed spies, forgers, contraband slaves, 20 of Mosby's Rangers, Belle Boyd etc. While I assume since Colby was 19th VRC, his men and staff were also (but this needs to be verified) I'm trying to find out how many VRC were stationed at the prison and hospital, and since most Army Hospitals in DC had bands, good chance the prison hospital had one also.

Wait a minute...I thought the topic was the Arsenal Penitentiary, not the Old Capitol Prison as you state near the end of the above. Lt. Colby - was he attached to Old Capitol or the Arsenal? The list of prisoners that you mention were incarcerated at the Old Capitol, not the Arsenal.

Have I/we been searching for an orange in a bushel of apples?

---

"According to Colonel N. T. Colby, who became prison superintendent at the end of the war: “That which is commonly known as the Old Capitol Prison, and which figured so conspicuously in the history of the late war, consisted, really, of two separate and distinct edifices, locally known by the names of the Old Capitol and the Carroll buildings, and were situated, the first, on the corner of Pennsylvania avenue and East First street, and the other on the corner of Maryland avenue and East First – a block apart, and both facing the Capitol building and East Capitol Park."

I just found the fly in the ointment regarding the band situation. We are talking about apples and oranges! Col. Colby, as cited by NHJohn, was attached to the Old Capitol Prison (once on the site of where the Supreme Court Building now sits). He was not at the Washington Arsenal/Penitentiary, which is blocks away on the waterfront. If there was a band associated with Colby's command, it would have been at the prison, not the penitentiary.

In finding this, however, I also caught a serious error on a website that I have respected and used before - mrlincolnswhitehouse.org - maintained through the Lincoln Institute. At the very end, they make the grievous mistake of saying that the four Lincoln conspirators were hanged at the Old Capitol, as was Henry Wirz. Yes, to Wirz, but a flat F- to the hanging of the conspirators. Shame on them.

I'm back an hour later and still can't find reference to a hospital at either the Arsenal grounds or the Old Capitol. Did find a good site done by the University of Nebraska: http://civilwardc.org/introductions/other/hospitals.php

A lot of folk get the prisoners' incarceration mixed up between Old Capitol and the Arsenal Prison. While the conspirators themselves were incerated at the Old Arsenal; some of the witnesses; i.e. the Bransons (who started out under house arrest and then were transferred to the Old Capitol), folk being held as witnesses for the trial, etc. were held there. Mrs. Surratt WAS supposedly at the Old Capitol at first when "the boys" were held on the gun boats, but was later transferred to the Arsenal when the male prisoners were.

About an actual hospital at the Old Arsenal? I'm not sure, but you'd think that they at least had some sort of "sick bay"/medical facility. Wouldn't John E and/or Barry C know?

(06-29-2014 01:11 PM)BettyO Wrote:  A lot of folk get the prisoners' incarceration mixed up between Old Capitol and the Arsenal Prison.

Regarding the hangings I have received tons of letters over the years from students who were taught the hangings took place at the Old Capitol Prison. This is what their teacher taught them. I agree with Laurie that mrlincolnswhitehouse.org is usually a very reliable (and footnoted) website, but the error/confusion is really somewhat common from my personal experience.

Another web page that makes this error is here.

Agreed, Roger. I also think that folk have a tendency to get confused because Wirtz was laid to rest alongside the Conspirators in the trench in the Arsenal warehouse.

I did find reference to a hospital next to the old penitentiary on the Arsenal grounds. It was built in 1857. It appears that some of the women injured in the Arsenal explosion in June of 1864 were taken there. Now, if we could just find reference to a band being attached there.

NHJohn - I found one confusing description of a Pennsylvania unit called the Ringgolds Artillery that were among the first defenders in 1861. If I read it right, they were first housed in the Capitol and then sent to barracks created in the penitentiary on the Arsenal grounds. There seems to have been a band later attached to them, but the entire unit appears to have been the 30-day wonders?

I am now officially brain dead on this subject.

Just got off the phone with John Elliott. He says that has far as he knows, there was no hospital attached to the Arsenal Per se.... so good going, Laurie! While the hospital was not actually ON the arsenal grounds, it was fairly near.

If there was a band attached, there is nothing John says that he's found....

(06-29-2014 11:02 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Wait a minute...I thought the topic was the Arsenal Penitentiary, not the Old Capitol Prison as you state near the end of the above. Lt. Colby - was he attached to Old Capitol or the Arsenal? The list of prisoners that you mention were incarcerated at the Old Capitol, not the Arsenal.

Have I/we been searching for an orange in a bushel of apples?

---

"According to Colonel N. T. Colby, who became prison superintendent at the end of the war: “That which is commonly known as the Old Capitol Prison, and which figured so conspicuously in the history of the late war, consisted, really, of two separate and distinct edifices, locally known by the names of the Old Capitol and the Carroll buildings, and were situated, the first, on the corner of Pennsylvania avenue and East First street, and the other on the corner of Maryland avenue and East First – a block apart, and both facing the Capitol building and East Capitol Park."

I just found the fly in the ointment regarding the band situation. We are talking about apples and oranges! Col. Colby, as cited by NHJohn, was attached to the Old Capitol Prison (once on the site of where the Supreme Court Building now sits). He was not at the Washington Arsenal/Penitentiary, which is blocks away on the waterfront. If there was a band associated with Colby's command, it would have been at the prison, not the penitentiary.

In finding this, however, I also caught a serious error on a website that I have respected and used before - mrlincolnswhitehouse.org - maintained through the Lincoln Institute. At the very end, they make the grievous mistake of saying that the four Lincoln conspirators were hanged at the Old Capitol, as was Henry Wirz. Yes, to Wirz, but a flat F- to the hanging of the conspirators. Shame on them.

Ahhh...haaaaa! I like apples and oranges, just not in the same barrel. Now that makes sense, because something wasn't making sense. That's why when there was the explosion at the Arsenal in 1864, the Finley Hospital Band was sent to the Arsenal to lead the funeral procession. Colby was in charge of "state prisoners" and the facility known as "The Old Capitol Prison." I suspect this isn't the first time penitentiary and prison were confused. No wonder I couldn't understand why Hartranft and Colby were both said to be in charge. Now, the question becomes, what units were stationed at the Arsenal in April-June, 1865 as a matter of regular assignment due to it being a working Federal arsenal? What extra units were called in to pull security in, and around the Arsenal due to the trial/execution? Does anybody have a source for that?

According to Silent Sentinel on the Potomac, Fort McNair 1791-191, by Phyllis McClellan, in 1871, there WAS a hospital building on the post (pp. 55-57), designated as "Building 17B."

This was post-war. Nothing regarding a hospital in 1865 - still searching....
The same source states that one Brevet Major George Ramsey commanded the post from 1858 to 1863 when Major James D. Benton was appointed Commander. He remained until 1866. I would therefore supposed that Hartranft was simply appointed Commander while the conspirators were housed there.

(06-29-2014 03:29 PM)BettyO Wrote:  According to Silent Sentinel on the Potomac, Fort McNair 1791-191, by Phyllis McClellan, in 1871, there WAS a hospital building on the post (pp. 55-57), designated as "Building 17B."

This was post-war. Nothing regarding a hospital in 1865 - still searching....
The same source states that one Brevet Major George Ramsey commanded the post from 1858 to 1863 when Major James D. Benton was appointed Commander. He remained until 1866. I would therefore supposed that Hartranft was simply appointed Commander while the conspirators were housed there.

OK. New name to me, I'll try to find out what unit Benton came from.

Sorry, but it's James G. Benton - Here he is:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...d=59172747

   

(06-29-2014 04:08 PM)BettyO Wrote:  Sorry, but it's James G. Benton - Here he is:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...d=59172747

Well what do you know? A NH fellah. Regular army. I'm sitting about 20 miles from where he was born. OK, now wonder what unit was stationed at the Arsenal? Every regular army regiment was authorized a brass band. The rules for volunteer troops did not apply and regular army units did not have to muster out their bands in 1862. Wonder if the Ordinance Department had a band? I know the "Quartermaster Corps" in DC had one, as did the Treasury Department.

---

(06-29-2014 04:14 PM)NHjohn Wrote:  

(06-29-2014 04:08 PM)BettyO Wrote:  Sorry, but it's James G. Benton - Here he is:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...d=59172747

Well what do you know? A NH fellah. Regular army. I'm sitting about 20 miles from where he was born. OK, now wonder what unit was stationed at the Arsenal? Every regular army regiment was authorized a brass band. The rules for volunteer troops did not apply and regular army units did not have to muster out their bands in 1862. Wonder if the Ordinance Department had a band? I know the "Quartermaster Corps" in DC had one, as did the Treasury Department.

Now, I see on the Joint Base/Ft. Myer/Ft. McNair website etc., it says there was a hospital "attached to the penitentiary," that "treated Civil war wounded during the war," so we're still back to the same position but at least we have the right guy commanding and he's regular army, not VRC, but VRC soldiers would still be manning the hospital if it was any size and required orderlies, nurses, guards, cooks, maintenance, etc. Otherwise, we didn't know the commander was regular army, and should have been there in-charge of regular army soldiers, either artillery or ordinance training soldiers.