Fascinating post, Linda! We have discussed several times over the past two years the reliability/lack of reliability of Jim Bishop's book. But I thought I would share his take on the Grants' trip. According to Bishop there were four trains north each day, and the Grants chose the route that took 13 hours. The shortest trip left the next morning and took 7 1/2 hours.

Here was the route they chose (according to Bishop):

6 P.M. Leave Washington City
7:25 P.M Arrive Baltimore
12:00 P.M. Arrive Philadelphia
Change Trains
6:00 A.M. Leave Philadelphia
7:00 A.M. Arrive Burlington

If they had spent the night of the 14th in Washington they could have caught a 7:30 A.M. express the morning of the 15th and arrived in Burlington at 2:58 P.M. So they could have gone to the theater with the Lincolns, spent the night at the Willard, and taken an express train the next day (although arriving in Burlington later).

The implication is they definitely wanted to leave the evening of the 14th (despite the prospect of a much faster train trip the next morning).
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Roger, not only was the alternative much faster, but the Grant's apparently had to spend six hours in the train station in Philadelphia in the middle of the night (instead of asleep in a hotel) in order to catch a train from Philadelphia to Burlington that lasted only one hour.

I agree with you: "The implication is they definitely wanted to leave the evening of the 14th." The reason being either 1) to be with their children in Burlington that much sooner (with very little sleep) or 2) to have the excuse not to be able to attend the theater with the Lincoln's the night of April 14, 1865.

Mrs Grant and MTL did not get along at all-but we knew that.
Plus the General was the ultimate 'family man', and loved to spend as much time with them as he could. His love for Julia was beyond good, it was great.
So those are really the only reasons the Grants didn't go to the theater that night.
Plus I'm sure Julia wanted to get away from MTL ASAP!

And he probably just didn't appreciate British comedy

(06-16-2014 06:18 PM)Hess1865 Wrote:  Mrs Grant and MTL did not get along at all-but we knew that.
Plus the General was the ultimate 'family man', and loved to spend as much time with them as he could. His love for Julia was beyond good, it was great.
So those are really the only reasons the Grants didn't go to the theater that night.
Plus I'm sure Julia wanted to get away from MTL ASAP!

Mr. Hess, I have also read a similar version as to why the Stantons turned down the Lincolns' invitation. Some books skip over Stanton and go right to the invitation of Thomas Eckert. But other books say that the Stantons had turned down the chance to go to the theater that evening with the Lincolns. I've read two possible reasons for this. One is that Stanton felt Lincoln shouldn't be going to the theater because it was too dangerous. The other is Ellen Stanton, like Julia Grant, did not like Mary Lincoln, and this was the actual reason for the Stantons' refusal to go that night.

(06-17-2014 04:51 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-16-2014 06:18 PM)Hess1865 Wrote:  Mrs Grant and MTL did not get along at all-but we knew that.
Plus the General was the ultimate 'family man', and loved to spend as much time with them as he could. His love for Julia was beyond good, it was great.
So those are really the only reasons the Grants didn't go to the theater that night.
Plus I'm sure Julia wanted to get away from MTL ASAP!

Mr. Hess, I have also read a similar version as to why the Stantons turned down the Lincolns' invitation. Some books skip over Stanton and go right to the invitation of Thomas Eckert. But other books say that the Stantons had turned down the chance to go to the theater that evening with the Lincolns. I've read two possible reasons for this. One is that Stanton felt Lincoln shouldn't be going to the theater because it was too dangerous. The other is Ellen Stanton, like Julia Grant, did not like Mary Lincoln, and this was the actual reason for the Stantons' refusal to go that night.

Let's make a list of "the people that did not like Mary Lincoln."

1. Julia Grant
2. Ellen Stanton
3. Willian Herndon - Lincoln's law partner of many years and the person that Lincoln told upon leaving Springfield for the White House to not change the law firm nameplate just and that he would return someday to continue the law partnership
4. Judge David Davis - the man who as judge on the Eighth Circuit Court was the principal cause that Lincoln blossomed as a lawyer (in my opinion), the man who led the Republican campaign for nomination of Lincoln in Chicago as the party's Presidential candidate in 1860, and the man Lincoln chose to become an associate justice of the U. S. Supreme Court. Professor David Donald Herbert stated in his book Lincoln that Judge Davis "detested" Mary Todd Lincoln.
5. John Hay - President Lincoln's personal secretary in the White House
6. John Nicolay - President Lincoln's personal secretary in the White House
7. Maid-servants hired by Mrs. Lincoln in Springfield (virtually all of them)
8. William S. Wood - railroad trip planner for the Lincoln's trip from Springfield to Washington DC in 1861. Although at one time Mary Todd Lincoln and William S. Wood appeared to be good friends (if not more), the two had a "falling out."

I am sure that there must be others that should be added to the list of "the people that did not like Mary Lincoln," but those are the ones that I can immediately recall at this time. If anyone wants to suggest other contemporary persons to be added to my list, please do so. But, be ready to provide documentary support for any suggested additions to my list.

I seem to remember Mary was not to fond of Kate Chase, do you think the feelings were mutual? I suppose this was due to political rivalry.
Interesting list David, I'm not sure anyone is claiming that Mary didn't have her shortcomings or that there were not people that didn't like her. Some of that goes with being in the public eye, being the wife of a public figure. We could probably come up with an equal list of names of people that realy liked Mary.

I find her a fascinating personality. Someone who's passions & feelings run hot and cold. I see her as someone not emotionally equipped to deal with some of the troubles or challenges life put in her way. And she certianly had her share of them. I think if we tried to list those, as opposed to people who didn't like her, it might make some of her actions that she is critcized for a little easier to understand and sympathize with.

Political rivalry was one reason Mrs. Lincoln didn't get along with Kate Chase.
The other was that Kate and MTL were rivals in the social whirl of Washington, so I'd say Miss Chase didn't have a high opinion of the First Lady.
Sort of sad the way Kate's life played out, though not as sad as Mrs. Lincoln's.

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And Mr Norton, I've heard the same story that Stanton didn't want to go to the theater because he feared for Lincoln's safety. He thought his refusal might change Lincoln's mind about going.

A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO EITHER LIKED, ADMIRED, OR LOVED MARY LINCOLN

1) Abraham Lincoln
2)Dr. Anson Henry
3)Senator Charles Sumner
4)Elizabeth Keckley
5)Mrs. Gideon Welles(wife of Navy Sec'y Welles)
6)Mrs. Elizabeth Dixon
7)Mrs. Sally Orne
8)Julia Taft Bayne
9)The Marquis de Chambrun
10)Clara Harris
11)Frederick Douglass
12)Harriet Tubman
13)Jane Swisshelm
14)Noah Brooks
15)William O. Stoddard
16)Elizabeth Blair Lee
17)Rev. James Smith
18)Henry Clay
19)Stephen Douglas
20)Mr. Simeon Francis
21)Mrs. Simeon Francis
22)Henry C. Whitney
23)Fred T. Dubois
24)Mrs. Edward Bates(wife of Atty Gen. Edward Bates)
25)General Dan Sickles
26)Rev.James A. Reed
27)Mercy Levering(Mrs. James Conkling)
28)Union army nurse Rebecca Pomroy
29)Rev. Noyes Miner
30)Queen Victoria of England
31)Edward Lewis Baker (grandnephew)
32)Mrs. Julia Sprigg( Springfield neighbor)
33)Mrs. Charles Dallman(Springfield neighbor)
34)Mrs.W.H.Bailehache(wife of editor of Illinois State Journal)
35)Rhoda White (wife of NY justice James White)
36)James Bradwell(attorney)
37)Myra Bradwell (attorney)
38)Robert Todd Lincoln
39)William Wallace Lincoln
40)Thomas "Tad" Lincoln

*sources for any of the above request*

(Cool idea, Toia.) Add all children in general, as Julia Spriggs e.g. said: "She was the kind of woman that children liked, and children would be attracted to her." Julia Taft felt similar, and in later life, one of Mary's "true friends" was her grandnephew Edward Lewis Baker,

Thanks Eva E....there's certainly more where those came from! For example, I didn't even(originally) mention the Lincolns' neighbor Mrs.Charles Dallman whose infant Mary nursed when his mother was too ill to do so, thus saving the newborn's life. AL used to walk across the street to the Dallman home every day, pick up the baby and bring it to his wife to nurse at the same time she was nursing Tad. This continued for as long as necessary. The child survived infancy thanks to Mary, but died in early childhood. After the family's return from the cemetery Mrs. Lincoln sent her husband over with a large tray bearing a supper which she had prepared.

source: Illinois State Register, Feb 27 1938

So I guess we can add the Dallman family of Springfield to the list of people that loved Mary.

Except for the one time that he was rude to Mary's Confederate sister at the White House, I believe Sen. Ira Harris enjoyed her company on quite a few occasions.

Plus Robert S. Todd, Eliza P. Todd, grandmother Parker, and sure
many of the soldiers whom Mary had visited in the hospitals.

(06-18-2014 06:12 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Except for the one time that he was rude to Mary's Confederate sister at the White House, I believe Sen. Ira Harris enjoyed her company on quite a few occasions.

Right. But I only included people on the list that I knew for sure loved the First Lady and for whom I could provide documentation. I couldn't really do that with Sen. Harris, at least not immediately. Maybe I will find something.

Eva E., Mary had such a hot/cold relationship with her sisters and the Todds, even before the war. That's why I felt it wise not to put them on the list even though there is no doubt that as dysfunctional as they were, the Todds all loved one another. I am trying to find the name of the Union soldier MTL befriended during the war. She wrote letters to his mother on his behalf when he was wounded.

What impresses me personally is that this woman counted among her friends and admirers a former presidential contender and suitor(Stephen Douglas), at least three former slaves, and three respected clergymen. Harriet Tubman was not a fan of Abraham Lincoln, but did like his wife enough to visit her at the WH on at least one occasion. She did later change her opinion of AL.(Looking For Lincoln, hardcopy pgs #428-429)

And aristocratic Charles Sumner...cultured, erudite, polyglot, aesthete, was one of the 19th century's biggest snobs. There is no way he would have been caught dead in Mary's circle if she was as vulgar and as vile as her enemies claim. President's wife or not, he would have cut her dead.

But he is one of the few people who remained loyal to her after he no longer had anything to gain from it.

(06-18-2014 06:12 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Except for the one time that he was rude to Mary's Confederate sister at the White House, I believe Sen. Ira Harris enjoyed her company on quite a few occasions.

Maybe someone will re-interpret now why Abraham Lincoln (as he claimed) looked underneath his bed each night to check if Senator Harris was there...

What....LOL!! I've never heard that before-A.L. said that?