The following are two quotes from a book entitled “The Women in Lincoln’s Life” by Donald Winkler and one quote from David Donald Herbert’s book “Lincoln.” The first quote references the original source of one of the Lincoln quotes from Professor Burlingame’s books that I used in my previous post. The second quote details the events of the wedding day for Mary Todd and Abraham Lincoln and calls into question the true source of the wedding ring inscription. The David Herbert Donald quote supports the statement by Speed regarding the happiness that he found in his own marriage and elaborates on the importance of this fact to Lincoln.

quote one from Winkler’s book:

Dr. Henry, concerned about Lincoln’s debilitating condition, encouraged Mary to write him an official letter of release, thinking she might be partly responsible. She finally did so, but added: “I have not changed my mind, but feel as always.” Mrs. Butler, who helped care for Lincoln, went into his room on January 17, closed the door, and walking over to his bed, said: “Now, Abraham, what is the matter? Tell me all about it.” He did. Mrs. Butler’s sister Sarah Richard (Speed’s former girlfriend) later told a reporter: “Suffering under the thought that he had treated Mary badly, knowing that she loved him and that he did not lover her, Mr. Lincoln was wearing his very life away in an agony of remorse. He made no excuse for breaking with Mary, but said, sadly, to my sister: ‘Mrs. Butler, it would just kill me to marry Mary Todd.’”

quote two from Winkler’s book:

Early on the morning of November 4, 1842, Lincoln dropped by the Reverend Charles Dresser’s home. The Dresser family was eating breakfast when Lincoln reportedly announced, “I want to get hitched tonight.” The surprised Episcopal minister checked his schedule and said he would be available. After stores opened, Lincoln dashed into Chatterton’s jewelry shop and ordered a wide-band ring – perhaps according to Mary’s instructions. It was to be inscribed: “A.L. to Mary, Nov. 4, 1842. Love is Eternal.” At noon Lincoln visited James H. Matheny, a friend who was the son of the county clerk. “Jim, I shall have to marry that girl this evening. Will you be my best man?” Matheny agreed and thought that “Lincoln looked and acted as if he was going to the slaughter.” Lincoln told Matheny he was “driven into the marriage.” Mary Todd called on Julia Jayne, co-author of the “Lost Townships” letters, and asked her to be a bridesmaid. At about the same time, the couple’s closest friends and relatives were notified, and Mary broke the news to her sister Elizabeth Edwards, fueling the most memorable of the day’s unforgettable exchanges. “How could you marry someone who humiliated you? He’s white trash, a common person, a plebian.” But Mary would not back down. Elizabeth finally gave in but then attacked the timing: “You’ve only given me two-hours notice. I don’t have time to prepare a suitable wedding feast . . . I guess I’ll have to send out for gingerbread and beer.” “Well,” Mary replied sarcastically, “that will be good enough for plebeians, I suppose!” As Lincoln was dressing for the ceremony, his landlord’s son asked him where he was going. Lincoln replied, “To hell, I suppose.”

quote three form David Herbert Donald’s book:

It is my understanding that David Herbert Donald is an acceptable source of information on this subject matter. David Herbert Donald in his book “Lincoln” (at pages 89-90) wrote the following which appears to me to be in strong support of the “Speed” quote which I posted previously: ”One thing is plainly discernible; if I had not been married and happy — far more happy than I ever expected to be — he would not have married.”
Once the [Speed] wedding took place, a different note entered Lincoln’s letters. He awaited “with intense anxiety and trepidation” Speed’s report on his marriage. When Speed reported that he was far happier than he ever expected to be, Lincoln was overjoyed. “I am not going beyond the truth, when I tell you, that the short space it took me to read your last letter, gave me more pleasure, than the total sum of all I have enjoyed since that fatal first of Jany. ’41.” He might have left it at that, but he needed to make sure that Speed, after all his doubts and suffering, was happy. Eight months after the wedding he asked bluntly: “Are you now, in feeling as well as judgment, glad you are married as you are?” “From any body but me,” he realized, “”this would be an impudent question not to be tolerated; but I know yu will pardon it in me.”

David Herbert Donald added in the first sentence immediately thereafter: “He had a reason for asking Speed to reply quickly, for he was once more approaching marriage with Mary Todd.”

H. Donald Winkler? Isn't he the gentleman who identifies himself as a descendant of the sainted, lamented Ann Rutledge? He also described Lincoln's much loved youngest son Tad as a "retard" in one of his books, and in yet another("Lincoln And Booth") made the truly loathsome suggestion that Mary Todd Lincoln helped set up her husband's murder in a fit of pique after City Point. Lovely.

David, I have read everything you posted above, many times. Lincoln had cold feet and doubts right up to the moment of his wedding. But the idea that he had the wedding band inscribed "perhaps to Mary's instructions" is pure speculation that cannot be proven and indeed is not proved by any of the persons you quoted.

The issue of the engraved wedding band is devastating to the claims of anti-Mary folks that Lincoln had no love for this young woman, which is why they are reduced to making bizarre speculations and to trying so very hard to minimize it.("She MADE him do it!") Unless there is indisputable evidence to the contrary-a letter or the statement of a trustworthy and unbiased third party, Lincoln engraved his bride's ring LOVE IS ETERNAL because he wanted to.

As Laurie so succinctly pointed out, how do you explain the fact that he impregnated this woman who allegedly made him miserable multiple times? Why not move into a separate room after Robert's birth instead of bringing more and more children into a loveless, unhappy marriage to a woman he never wanted?

How do Burlingame and the rest of you explain the longing for her company that he expressed in letters he wrote to her from Washington D.C. when he was in Congress and they were separated?
Did he call her "Molly", "Puss" and his "little woman" because Mary made him do it? Why did he run home through the rain to comfort her when she was frightened? Why did he tell the reporter during the Presidency that he had fallen in love with her and had never fallen out? Why present her with diamonds after 21 years of marriage, along with a declaration of love("I give you my heart")? How to explain the fact that during the White House years it is to Mary's sitting room and bedroom that he often retreated to nap, read and relax?(Elizabeth Keckley "Behind The Scenes at the White House") The rooms of the woman who he married under duress and who made him miserable according to Burlingame. He had his own room at the WH...why not go there?

There is evidence that AL had doubts about marriage and intimacy and apparently dreaded both. There is also evidence-very compelling evidence-of a deep love and attachment that he formed with Mary once he was actually in the marriage.

It was a complex relationship. It is difficult, perhaps impossible to know for 100% certain the truth about the marriage because much of their personal correspondence was lost. But one thing is absolutely certain...MTL never doubted her husband's love and devotion to her. In her hundreds of letters that are in existence, her faith in that love is unshaken. As she expressed it..."it will comfort me to my grave". Herndon, with all his over the top drivel about AL losing his mind and wandering the fields and blubbering over the grave of Ann Rutledge failed to shake the faith in the love of her husband that MTL had.

And she is the one person that counts here.

The facts we know are mainly that they were married till death did part them, that they had four children, and the letters A. L. wrote Mary, which sound affectionate and don't give any hint on a malfunctioning marriage. Example:

"Washington, April 16, 1848
Dear Mary:

In this troublesome world we are
never quite satisfied. When you were
here, I thought you hindered me some
in attending to business; but now,
having nothing but business — no van-
ity — it has grown exceedingly taste-
less to me. I hate to sit down and di-
rect documents, and I hate to stay in
this old room by myself...I am afraid you will get so well and fat and young as to be
wanting to marry again.
Most Affectionately,
A. Lincoln."

Most letters begin with "My dear wife". I recommend to take a look at them:
http://archive.org/stream/lincolnkinsman...r_djvu.txt
(...BTW, this site is headlined "THIRTY-FOUR TELEGRAMS AND LETTERS WHICH REVEAL LINCOLN'S TENDER REGARD FOR HIS FAMILY")

The reliability of the accounts by others is a matter of speculation. Most were stated after his death, and AFAIK Herndon was eager to get such statements that worked well to support his (anti-Mary) point of view.

David, I don't see what else your third quote proves than that he was figuring out the possible changes and consequences, and whether he wanted to make a lifelong lasting decision at all. He might have done the same in case the bride's name had been Ann Rutledge. Speed was, regarding his wedding day and decision, nervous in the same way (as many other grooms and brides) - which was why A. L. sounded out him - so I assume you doubt Speed's happiness in his married life, too?

Also, if he did, who knows if Lincoln was not kidding when he said he was going to hell? He was nervous, like many on that day, and I bet many grooms utter such uncouth statements without seriously meaning what they said. We don't know the entire context and situation.

And, David, may I ask for your comment on that allegedly A. L., regarding Mary's tempers, once said: "It does her a power of good, and it doesn't hurt me any." (As for the reliability - I'm afraid I can only give Stefan Lorrant in 1955 as a source.)

Nevertheless (that this might be not a proven fact) I would like to add one quote - also to ask if someone knows the original source (I quote from W.E.Reck's "...His Last 24 Hours"):

"We must both, be more cheerful in the future - between the war and the loss of our darling Willie - we have both, been very miserable...Mary, we have had a hard time of it since we came to Washington, but the war is over, and with God's blessing we may hope for four years of peace and happyness, and then we will go back to Illinois and pass the rest of our lives in quiet..."

Would you talk in that manner about future plans, together, after almost 24 years of marriage, with a spouse you would like to escape from?

(05-25-2014 03:29 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Nevertheless (that this might be not a proven fact) I would like to add one quote - also to ask if someone knows the original source (I quote from W.E.Reck's "...His Last 24 Hours"):

"We must both, be more cheerful in the future - between the war and the loss of our darling Willie - we have both, been very miserable...Mary, we have had a hard time of it since we came to Washington, but the war is over, and with God's blessing we may hope for four years of peace and happyness, and then we will go back to Illinois and pass the rest of our lives in quiet..."

Eva, I could not find the (entire) exact quote, but part of it comes from what Mary wrote to Francis Carpenter on November 15, 1865. Do you have the Turners' book? If so, please see the very bottom of p. 284 and top of p. 285. Also, it looks like part of the quote came from Isaac Arnold. That part is on pp. 429-430 of Isaac Arnold's The Life of Abraham Lincoln, and he gives his source as a personal conversation he had with Mary Lincoln. So, at this point, I am thinking that when authors quote from this conversation they are combining at least two sources.

Thanks for finding that out, Roger! I don't have Arnold's book, but the Turners'. Maybe I'll find Arnold's online.

(05-24-2014 10:46 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi Gene, I loved Ruth Painter Randall's book but I didn't mention it for a couple of reasons. First, I wanted to single out only men who I feel have written a balanced and fair description of the marriage, and second Ruth Painter Randall is a little too slanted in the pro-Mary direction.

I specifically wanted to mention men who have not consistently written negatively about MTL but have been fair to her, in contrast to ones like Michael Burlingame.

In defense of Ruth, we read so much negative about Mary, when we read something that isn't that way, it sometimes comes across as to slanted in her favor. Mrs. Randall does point out some of Mary's shortcomings , makes no excuse for them, but does explain why they happened. She writes as though she is a close friend of Mary's, it was refreshing for a change. She doesn't harp on her faults the way other writers do, but I agree, she is a bit slanted in favor of Mary.

Now back to Ann & Abraham. No doubt in my mind they had a close relationship, he did stay overnight several times at the Rutledge home, they knew each other well. He's lost his mother, he's lost his only sister, he's away from home (and his dog). Ann's death would have been extremely hard to get over. A promising, romantic relationship is hard to get over. My two favorite books about this time period are Lincoln's New Salem by Benjamin Thomas and The Shadows Rise by John Walsh. (anyone read Citizen of New Salem by Paul Horgan?)

(05-25-2014 03:29 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I would like to add one quote - also to ask if someone knows the original source (I quote from W.E.Reck's "...His Last 24 Hours"):

"We must both, be more cheerful in the future - between the war and the loss of our darling Willie - we have both, been very miserable...Mary, we have had a hard time of it since we came to Washington, but the war is over, and with God's blessing we may hope for four years of peace and happyness, and then we will go back to Illinois and pass the rest of our lives in quiet..."

Is it likely that he talked in that manner about future plans, together, after almost 24 years of marriage, with a spouse he would have liked to escape from?

Eva E,
This is a good point and one that is rarely considered by pro-Herndon authors. AL was a very sensitive and aware man. He knew the toll that 4 years of war and WH life had taken on Mary and their marriage. According to a letter MTL wrote to her friend Mary Jane Welles a few weeks after the tragedy, Lincoln wrote his wife a playful, romantic note on Wednesday, Apr 12 inviting his wife to take a carriage ride alone together on Friday April 14th. Along with Reconstruction I have always felt that in the back of his mind he was making plans to reach out to his troubled wife and try to "fix" their relationship...get back some of the stability they had known in their Springfield years. One of the last acts of his life before Booth's bullet smashed into his skull was to reach for her hand.

---

(05-25-2014 04:18 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-25-2014 03:29 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Nevertheless (that this might be not a proven fact) I would like to add one quote - also to ask if someone knows the original source (I quote from W.E.Reck's "...His Last 24 Hours"):

"We must both, be more cheerful in the future - between the war and the loss of our darling Willie - we have both, been very miserable...Mary, we have had a hard time of it since we came to Washington, but the war is over, and with God's blessing we may hope for four years of peace and happyness, and then we will go back to Illinois and pass the rest of our lives in quiet..."

Eva, I could not find the (entire) exact quote, but part of it comes from what Mary wrote to Francis Carpenter on November 15, 1865. Do you have the Turners' book? If so, please see the very bottom of p. 284 and top of p. 285. Also, it looks like part of the quote came from Isaac Arnold. That part is on pp. 429-430 of Isaac Arnold's The Life of Abraham Lincoln, and he gives his source as a personal conversation he had with Mary Lincoln. So, at this point, I am thinking that when authors quote from this conversation they are combining at least two sources.

Hi Roger-

As promised I have been digging to find a source for my comment the other day about AL discussing a romantic attachment to Mary Owens even while Ann Rutledge was still alive. In Ch.IV of the book "Legends That Libel Lincoln" (1946, Montgomery Lewis) the author has AL saying, in 1833 after MO left New Salem, that "if ever that girl comes back to New Salem I am going to marry her" and in the footnotes the author gives the source of the statement as the Beveridge bio of AL that came out in the late 19th century. He also mentions a long and "boyish" letter AL wrote in 1838 after Ann's death to Mrs. Orville Browning, where he discusses his earlier romance with Owens.

But I am still trying to find yet another letter or comment he made to Owen's sister while Ann was yet alive where he discusses his interest in Owens. I'll get back to you on this!

Bravo, Toia and Eva. I am convinced that there was a deep and lasting love between those two. I suspect there could have been a similar love between Abraham and Ann, if fate had not taken her. I don't see Abraham Lincoln as a man who took love lightly.

The men seem to dwell on the fact that Lincoln first fled from the altar. I am willing to bet that at least 75% of you who have "taken the plunge" had serious doubts about what you were getting yourself into right up until the moment you walked out to meet your bride.

I was a church organist for 26 years, and I have seen a lot of men much more nervous than the brides. One gentleman almost got disowned by his father-in-law because, as the bride and groom knelt at the altar rail for the final blessing, the congregation (and dad) could clearly see that he had spelled "HELP" on his left shoe and "ME" on his right shoe. That sure broke the solemnity of the moment! And yes, the couple is still married, and it has been over thirty years.

Could Lincoln have had a case of jitters for some time knowing that he was marrying out of his social circle (which was an important element in those days) and worrying that he was a struggling lawyer with political aspirations and how in the world was he going to support a wife and the children that would likely follow? Could he have worried that he wasn't good enough for Mary Todd?

Very frankly, I think those who still cling to painting Mary as a shrew are doing a disservice to Mr. Lincoln. You look up to Lincoln for his foresight, his character, his depth of feelings for others, his principles of decency -- and yet you make him seem to be a browbeaten, hen-pecked husband who dare not say his soul was his own.

(05-25-2014 06:30 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(05-24-2014 10:46 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi Gene, I loved Ruth Painter Randall's book but I didn't mention it for a couple of reasons. First, I wanted to single out only men who I feel have written a balanced and fair description of the marriage, and second Ruth Painter Randall is a little too slanted in the pro-Mary direction.

I specifically wanted to mention men who have not consistently written negatively about MTL but have been fair to her, in contrast to ones like Michael Burlingame.

In defense of Ruth, we read so much negative about Mary, when we read something that isn't that way, it sometimes comes across as to slanted in her favor. Mrs. Randall does point out some of Mary's shortcomings , makes no excuse for them, but does explain why they happened. She writes as though she is a close friend of Mary's, it was refreshing for a change. She doesn't harp on her faults the way other writers do, but I agree, she is a bit slanted in favor of Mary.

Now back to Ann & Abraham. No doubt in my mind they had a close relationship, he did stay overnight several times at the Rutledge home, they knew each other well. He's lost his mother, he's lost his only sister, he's away from home (and his dog). Ann's death would have been extremely hard to get over. A promising, romantic relationship is hard to get over. My two favorite books about this time period are Lincoln's New Salem by Benjamin Thomas and The Shadows Rise by John Walsh. (anyone read Citizen of New Salem by Paul Horgan?)

Hi Gene-

Yes, I agree that the RPR bio of Mary is a refreshing change. Randall definitely doesn't paint Mary as an angel, and implies that she suffered a mental illness(which I agree with) but that at her very best she was good for Lincoln...she was highly intelligent, loyal, cultured and witty. I love her book, it's my favorite MTL bio.

I have also read "The Shadows Rise". It's the book that convinced me that the Lincoln/Rutledge romance happened, that it was real and meaningful. BUT...John Evangelist Walsh never makes the absurd and baseless claim that Lincoln was not able to love again, and he never denigrates MTL which sets him apart from most other anti-Mary writers.

I found an interesting article titled "The Role of the First Lady and the Media: A Preliminary Case Study of New York Times Coverage of Mary Todd Lincoln, 1861-1865" by Katherine E. Roberts in The Civil War and the Press.

"Mary Todd Lincoln basically broke every 'rule' expected of 19th-century ladies, especially First Ladies who, as their husbands represented the nation, were presumed to represent American womanhood. Because of her political interests and spending habits, she was seen as lacking the proper self-control of the pious female. Much criticism came from men who 'preferred females of incontestable docility and who were shocked at this one's interest in the public world.' (42) Women's lives were assumed to belong to a realm entirely outside of politics, and the involvement of First Ladies in such matters enjoins the two domains of public and private life - which could dramatically alter ideas about gender roles." p. 425.

You can read most of the article in Google Books. It starts on p. 419.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y2KUTBv...ln&f=false

Thanks Linda.

Mary didn't "know her place" according to the standards of proper 19th century Victorian womanhood. Or, if she did know her place she refused to stay there. This is at least part of what made her so unpopular/controversial in her day.

Ironically I think it's also something that her husband might have found attractive about her. I simply cannot ever see AL content with some docile, uneducated little housewife.

(05-25-2014 03:29 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  David, may I ask for your comment on that allegedly A. L., regarding Mary's tempers, once said: "It does her a power of good, and it doesn't hurt me any." (As for the reliability - I'm afraid I can only give Stefan Lorrant in 1955 as a source.)

The following is from Professor Burlingame’s book “Abraham Lincoln, A Life” Vol. TWO at page 782 and quotes from a book written by General Grant’s aide, Major Adam Badeau, who chronicles a series of events occurring around April 1, 1865, involving Mary Todd Lincoln and her husband, the President of the United States Abraham Lincoln:

Badeau reported that Mary Lincoln over the next few days “repeatedly attacked her husband in the presence of officers because of Mrs. Griffin and Mrs. Ord.” The spectacle dismayed Badeau, who later wrote: “I never suffered greater humiliation and pain . . . than when I saw the Head of State, the man who carried all the cares of the nation at such a crisis – subjected to this inexpressible public mortification.” Lincoln “bore it as Christ might have done; with an expression of pain and sadness that cut one to the heart, but with supreme calmness and dignity.” With “old-time plainness” he called his wife “mother.” He also “pleaded with eyes and tones, and endeavored to explain or palliate the offenses of others, till she turned on him like a tigress; and then he walked away, hiding that noble, ugly face that we might not catch the full expression of its misery.”

Eva, may I ask your comment regarding Mary's tempers and the possible deleterious affects upon her husband at that time.

---

(05-25-2014 03:29 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  David, I don't see what else your third quote proves than that he was figuring out the possible changes and consequences, and whether he wanted to make a lifelong lasting decision at all. He might have done the same in case the bride's name had been Ann Rutledge. Speed was, regarding his wedding day and decision, nervous in the same way (as many other grooms and brides) - which was why A. L. sounded out him - so I assume you doubt Speed's happiness in his married life, too?

I don't doubt Speed's happiness in his married life. Lincoln wanted additional assurances from Speed.

I believe that on a scale of one to ten that Lincoln felt that the chances of Speed's marriage to Fanny would be a failure were at the minimal rating of one.

There is no record anywhere of Lincoln having any doubts whatsoever about his anticipated happiness in his well-planned forthcoming marriage to Ann.

Professor David Herbert Donald wrote: “He (Lincoln) had a reason for asking Speed to reply quickly, for he was once more approaching marriage with Mary Todd.”

As to Lincoln's anticipated happiness in a possible marriage to Mary Todd, I quote once again Lincoln contemporaneously saying to the sister of Sarah Richard (Speed’s former girlfriend): "Mrs. Butler, it would just kill me to marry Mary Todd."

David, I'll reply to you later (lack the time right now), maybe someone else does either meanwhile.

But I have a (quite related) question: Roger wrote on another thread: "Regarding Mr. [William] Wood Jean Baker writes, 'At some point Mary Lincoln and William Wood had become friends and possibly more.' I think I have read the 'possibly more' implication in at least one other book."

I've never read this, nor expected such. Would you believe such ("possibly more") ever happened? In other words: Did Mary ever have an affair or was seriously "in danger of"? What was (in your opinion) her mindset like in this regard?

[quote='David Lockmiller' pid='33604' dateline='1401251869']
Eva, may I ask your comment regarding Mary's tempers and the possible deleterious affects upon her husband at that time.

---

It is well documented that Mary had a temper. Possibly aggravated by her head aches, hormone changes, medication taken, and stress. On the other hand, she was a very kind, compassionate woman. She visited military hospital, took flowers, fresh fruit, listened to to and comforted the wounded soldiers, on a fairly frequent basis. Not a criticism, but our current first lady doesn't do that (and she doesn't have Mary's personality quirks) . After Lincoln's death, and she was pinching pennies, she wrote a kind letter to Abraham's step mother and sent her money. Now I personally think Abraham loved her deeply, and it pained him to see her erratic behavior and see her suffer. He had to know there was something wrong with her. It's hard to stand by and see someone suffer when you don't know how to help them. I'm sure all of this hurt him (especially when Willie died). But how he responded is one of the reasons we have this discussion forum, why thousands of books are written about him. He rose above the circumstances with strength, dignity, compassion, and his faith in God, even when he didn't feel like it.

(05-28-2014 08:38 AM)Gene C Wrote:  He rose above the circumstances with strength, dignity, compassion, and his faith in God, even when he didn't feel like it.

I just have to say that's an absolutely beautiful description of Lincoln. Brought tears to my eyes, and I don't tear up all that easily.