This is something that is not important to whether Lincoln was a great man, (he was) but I am curious to what people think.

Wayne Temple laid out the idea that the Lincolns married so suddenly in 1842, because Mary was pregnant in "From Skeptic to Prophet" a wonderful book on Lincoln's religion.

Burlingame accepts this thesis and there is some circumstantial evidence. Robert's birth was very close to the normal gestation period of a baby conceived in late October. In "Lincoln Day by Day," Lincoln was in Springfield in the last few days of October. (I know there is wide variance on gestiation time though). Mary's sister Elizabeth was quite mad at the lack of warning of the wedding.

Is it possible that the Lincolns while planning to get married soon, paniced at the idea Mary may have been ovulating and married suddenly November 4th 1842?

Such things can never be proved, but it would explain some of the things Lincoln did around the time.

Now I totally reject the notion that Mary was trying to "trap" Lincoln. It takes to to tango as they say. Lincoln would have rejected such a notion. And Lincoln himself once wrote a bit of doggeral making fun of men who sleep with a lot of women and then call women who do anything similar names.

Hi Mike. Personally I think this is possible, but how can we know? If there were a "secret" here, both people took it to their graves. Springfield was a relatively small town at that time, and Lincoln was a well-known "rising star" as both a lawyer and politician. He had a good reputation for character, honesty, etc. It is possible that the two were worried that Mary might be pregnant and therefore the hurried wedding took place because Abraham's reputation and future political career might have been considered at stake. Also, Mary was living at the home of her older sister, Elizabeth, who was the wife of the son of the former Illinois Governor. No one wanted any possible embarrassments as the Edwards family was a very prominent one. But, as I said before, a definitive answer to this cannot be known. It's pure speculation, IMO.

I think another author who suggests this possibility is Janis Cooke Newman in Mary: Mrs. A. Lincoln.

I had always heard the Temple thesis and wondered about it as well - of course we'll never know as there is nothing on which to base it other than the rather "quick" birth of Robert after the marriage. It is, as Roger has said, pure speculation.

Under the living arrangements of that day, where would the couple have had the opportunity and privacy to conceive a child before marriage? And, with the cumbersome clothing of the day, a "quickie" would have been difficult...

Apparently, AL and Mary had been meeting secretly in the home of Simeon Francis, who is credited with getting them back together. The idea is that they were given privacy to become reacquainted. If that is the case, they had their opportunity for premarital relations. But I'm not convinced that that's what happened. As Roger says, we'll never know.

While Temple's theory is interesting, it is also purely speculative, and at his own admission.
Mary Todd & Abraham Lincoln were married November 4, 1842, and Robert was born August 1, the following year, 1843. That is 36 weeks or 9 months, from the Lincoln's wedding day or evening to Robert's birth date. 40 weeks is the normal gestation for a human being, and 36 weeks, is well within the “normal” gestation, at birth.
Prior to say, the 1970's, it was not uncommon to "rush" weddings, switch marriage dates, etc., to accommodate, a pre-conceived (that is pre or prior) to a wedding date, or plan a wedding around an unexpected conception, Honeymoon or newlywed conception, was also very common.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-...e-marriage
A 1995 article about Temple’s book, "Abraham Lincoln: From Skeptic to Prophet”, a 446 page book, where Temple lays his theory out, about the Lincoln’s hastily arranged marriage, in just a couple of pages.
Temple admits to a large degree, that his theory about Mary Todd and Abraham’s wedding being rushed, are purely circumstantial, event driven, and his best postulate. Abraham Lincoln was loyal and honorable to his conscience and word. And the “broken” promise or vows, which Temple states, led Mary Todd, a possible subject of public ridicule, at the sake of “spinster “being her newly anointed titled, is exaggerated. Mary and AL dated, broke up, then became engaged, broke up, and finally wed. Yes, it seems likely that Mary knew what she wanted, and wanted AL, and worked hard to make sure she married AL. AL also had a choice, and perhaps led Mary to believe they were going to marry. Being true to his word, and his conscience, is just as plausible as the pregnancy theory.
Also, Temple does not entertain that fact that the dates he so heavily relied on, to set his theory in place, that albeit, premarital relations, there is no way Mary would have known she was pregnant on the day of their wedding; unless the two met in late September, then the dates are wrong, because Robert would have been born in mid July, at the latest. So, unless the two married out of fear that a premarital encounter(s) would produce a pregnancy, then perhaps.

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(10-08-2013, 08:39 AM)L Verge Wrote: Under the living arrangements of that day, where would the couple have had the opportunity and privacy to conceive a child before marriage? And, with the cumbersome clothing of the day, a "quickie" would have been difficult...

So true!

Good points Karin,
I haven't read Temple's book yet, but it's working it's way to the top of the stack.

Wayne Temple laid out the idea that the Lincolns married so suddenly in 1842, because Mary was pregnant in "From Skeptic to Prophet" a wonderful book on Lincoln's religion.

Mike, how does it address Lincoln's religion? AL was very non-committal when it came to his faith; it wasn't until towards the end of his life, that there is even much of record about AL and his thoughts on his faith. Does Temple use events, speeches, and such in AL's life to theorize a growth or metamorphosis over his life or say his time as President, to demonstrate a change in his faith or growth into a faith?

I am just curious because with the right research, and a well written book, paper, etc. theories, based on facts, reasonably drawn, are the most interesting pieces, in my opinion.

Even if friends made accommodations for Abe and Mary to re-acquaint, I doubt seriously that that meant a bedroom in which to do it! I know they were "human," but the social mores under which Mary had been raised and the gentlemanly qualities that I attribute to Lincoln would preclude such "disgraceful" behavior, IMO.

For those interested, you should also check out Mike B.'s excellent book, Lincoln's Christianity. Mike is a careful and talented historian and his book, along with Doc Temple's, are two everyone should have on their bookshelf.

Best
Rob

I assume there would have been a lot of shame involved having a baby "too soon"- making it obvious that there was a premarital union.

Remember this song by the Supremes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IluVWcNtR8

Oh, yes! Love those Oldies!

My phone wouldnt play the video. Im assuming it's "Love Child?" The song was very controversial at the time for it's subject matter.

(10-09-2013, 08:00 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: My phone wouldnt play the video. Im assuming it's "Love Child?" The song was very controversial at the time for it's subject matter.

Bill, that is interesting. My computer in the closet works perfectly except for one thing: it plays You Tube videos, but there is no sound. It plays all other videos on the web perfectly with sound. I updated Adobe Flash Player to the current version, and a few other things, but still total silence when a You Tube video is playing. There are various ideas on the web for a fix, but none worked.