LincolnMan asked this question on another thread.

Several writers seem to believe this. What do you think?

I think Lincoln loved both his wife and sons very much. What are the major arguments that he regretted marrying Mary? I know Michael Burlingame lists a series of "incidents" noted by neighbors in Springfield, but personally I have thought Abraham had a "that's Mary" attitude toward these rather than serious regret. I don't think he was the easiest person to be married to; personally I don't think their arguments are cut-and-dried either way. Each person loved the other one, and they had their differences like most married people do.

No, I don't think he ever once regretted marrying Mary. I've often wondered, however, what would his life been like if he had married Ann Rutledge instead? Would he have risen to the presidency? I doubt it. It's likely that Lincoln would have entered politics, and might have risen high in the Illinois political arena, but the presidency was both Abraham and Mary's dream. She pushed him further along on that path. Given Ann's more humble background and lack of education (compared to Mary) would she have even considered such a high office available to him?

Best
Rob

Douglas Wilson in "Honors Voice" gave me the impression that Lincoln did not want to marry Mary because he was in love with Matilda Edwards. (Infatuated is more like it) She did not return his affections. Abraham married Mary as a matter of honor.

Since he had previously asked Mary to marry him but backed out, by his own standards he was not treating her honorably. This dilemma was causing him much mental anguish since he was violating his personal values of behavior and conduct. By doing the honorable thing, (marring Mary) even though he didn't want to, was a major turning point in the direction of his life. At least that was my understanding and condensed version of the point the author was trying to make. For those of you who have read this book, is that how you understood it?
It was a very good book, but I am not sure I agree with the author on this issue.

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...d-922.html

I think there are two different points here, though. The first is why did Lincoln wed Mary (I started to write "marry Mary" but thought better of it) and the second is was the marriage a source of regret to him for his entire life?

People get married for all sorts of reasons. From my admittedly limited understanding of the history of marriage, the concept of marrying for love is (at least in historical terms) rather recent. Most people who married did so for accumulation or consolidation of property or to keep a particular bloodline from being "contaminated" by outside forces. Many societies arranged marriages (and still do) that had nothing to do with love. As this applies to Lincoln, there could be an argument made that Mary was not his first choice, compared to Ann Rutledge or Matilda Edwards, but Rutledge died and Edwards said no. Had Lincoln done so out of a sense of honor, that still would not, in my view, have been a horrible reason.

But when one factors in my second question, I think that's where I get my answer. If you remember "Fiddler On the Roof," the two main characters, Tevye and Golde, were brought together in an arranged marriage but they grew to love each other. Their daughters, however, had other ideas. They wanted to marry for love and could never have done what their parents did. Tzietel would have acceded to her father's wishes that she marry Lazar Wolf but Tevye realized his daughter's happiness meant more to him then his time-honored tradition.

Lincoln had as an early influence the marriage between his father and Sarah Bush Johnston. When Thomas Lincoln went back to Kentucky to get a wife, I doubt that love was a major factor in his decision. He may have had feelings for Sarah, but his children needed a mother, and that was more important. Lincoln had to have felt that and took it in, even subconsciously. When he realized that he had to go through with the marriage, whether out of a sense of honor or out of feelings for Mary, he was really doing the same as his father, although for obviously different reasons. But he grew to love Mary, and the times they shared, and the children they lost, cemented a bond between them that only grew stronger.

Best
Rob

According to what Abraham Lincoln said to a correspondent to the "Christian Register" at a White House reception he didn't regret: "My wife is as handsome as when she was a young girl and I, a poor nobody, fell in love with her, and what is more, I have never fallen out." (...after over twenty years...)
Recently I read the theory that a great deal of Herndon's charge that the Lincoln household was a "domestic hell" rooted in Herndon's dislike of their undisciplined children ("brats"). Interesting idea.

I second Roger's point of view. And in the end, Wilson, Burlingame et al. make up and argue their opinion from "consulting" and interpreting the available sources - and are probably also influenced by their own understanding and ideal of a happy marriage and family life. A lot of people can't understand that others have different values than they have. And living as only a "core family" without further relatives under the same roof in those days I think was an unusual lifestyle, too.

To all who want to read "Mary's story" from different point of view, I recommend "The trials of Mrs. Lincoln" by Samuel Schreiner. (Although the focus is on the insanety trials, it at least briefly covers her entire life). The author also shows therein that it is possible to explain her "insane" behavior, and one could understand the thoughts and fears he has put into Mary's mind as those of a human beings ones, not just as of those of a "hellcat'" or an "insane". And he offers a point of view on the marriage from which one could imagine that - despite the normal ups and downs - she might have been exactly the counterpart A. L. needed - personally and with regard to his career. I think Mary deserves this book to be read.

Does anyone know - was Abraham Lincoln present at the birth of any of his children? I think he was on the circuit when Willie and Tad were born (but I'm not sure), maybe at Robert's birth?

I have always assumed that much of the nastiness against Mary Lincoln that has been printed has come from the Victorian male's code of wanting women to be submissive and remain solely in the realm of tending the home and rearing the children. Thus, she was judged by Herndon and other peers of her husband as being outside of that accepted role -- and, therefore, she must make Lincoln unhappy. Subsequent writers of the 20th century just rehashed the same old line.

I'm not a fan of Hillary Clinton, but she caught similar flak while First Lady, and so did Rosalyn Carter when the press found out that she was sitting in on Cabinet meetings.

I think Lincoln loved both his wife and sons very much. What are the major arguments that he regretted marrying Mary? I know Michael Burlingame lists a series of "incidents" noted by neighbors in Springfield, but personally I have thought Abraham had a "that's Mary" attitude toward these rather than serious regret.

I agree, Roger. I think both Abraham & Mary loved their sons, very much, and they were an important thread that they shared, equally in the items that brought both spouses, together. I also think that Abraham had a laissez-faire attitude, about Mary.

(10-07-2013 04:29 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  According to what Abraham Lincoln said to a correspondent to the "Christian Register" at a White House reception he didn't regret: "My wife is as handsome as when she was a young girl and I, a poor nobody, fell in love with her, and what is more, I have never fallen out." (...after over twenty years...)
Recently I read the theory that a great deal of Herndon's charge that the Lincoln household was a "domestic hell" rooted in Herndon's dislike of their undisciplined children ("brats"). Interesting idea.

I second Roger's point of view. And in the end, Wilson, Burlingame et al. make up and argue their opinion from "consulting" and interpreting the available sources - and are probably also influenced by their own understanding and ideal of a happy marriage and family life. A lot of people can't understand that others have different values than they have. And living as only a "core family" without further relatives under the same roof in those days I think was an unusual lifestyle, too.

To all who want to read "Mary's story" from different point of view, I recommend "The trials of Mrs. Lincoln" by Samuel Schreiner. (Although the focus is on the insanety trials, it at least briefly covers her entire life). The author also shows therein that it is possible to explain her "insane" behavior, and one could understand the thoughts and fears he has put into Mary's mind as those of a human beings ones, not just as of those of a "hellcat'" or an "insane". And he offers a point of view on the marriage from which one could imagine that - despite the normal ups and downs - she might have been exactly the counterpart A. L. needed - personally and with regard to his career. I think Mary deserves this book to be read.

Does anyone know - was Abraham Lincoln present at the birth of any of his children? I think he was on the circuit when Willie and Tad were born (but I'm not sure), maybe at Robert's birth?

Eva, author Jean Baker makes arguments similar to yours. She says that Mary was the perfect political partner for AL because of her own political savvy, and that Mary's poor treatment by the press was due in no small part to the fact that she was an assertive, intelligent woman (as Laurie also mentioned).

That isn't to say that Mary didn't cause Lincoln to suffer heartaches. Anecdotally, it sounds like she had a terrible problem with anxiety, and was quick to anger. But there are plenty of stories of how Lincoln tried to be as supportive as possible, when he could. For example, if, while at the office in Springfield, he heard a thunderstorm approaching, he would hurry home to comfort Mary, who was extremely afraid of thunderstorms.

On the other hand, it's hard to justify a lot of Mary's behavior during the White House years, particularly when it came to her excessive spending on clothes and jewelry, for which she was given generous credit since she was the president's wife. Other times, she accepted valuable gifts in exchange for favors, which Mary may or may not have been able to bestow. She also made friends with some shady characters, whose dealings in society were questionable either morally or ethically, and it's at least suspected that one of AL's major addresses was leaked to the press ahead of time by one of Mary's indiscreet friends.

In general, I get the impression that while Mary's influence on AL's life and fortunes during the pre-presidential years was largely positive, this was not the case during the presidential years, and Herndon has nothing to do with this impression. In the White House, Mary seems to have suffered a great deal and not been a comfort to her husband who really could have used serious emotional support on a daily basis. Of course, he was unable to provide her with the emotional support that she may have needed, since he was working, for most of his time as president, almost around the clock.

But Mary was also not much of a comfort to Tad after Willie died. While I can understand her being in mourning, even for an extended period of time, she hurt Tad by banishing his friends, the Taft children, from the White House, because they reminded her of Willie. Frankly, that's just cruel.

Then again, without any fanfare, Mary did visit thousands of wounded soldiers, brought them food and gifts and wrote letters home for them.

But then you have the way that Mary treated Elizabeth Keckley in the year or two after AL's death. Time and again, Mary requested that Mrs. K help her with the sale of her clothing, which caused Mrs. K to drop her work and spend her own money to travel to and stay in New York and endeavor to get merchants interested in the sale, as well as benefactors to help Mary pay her debts. As far as I know, Mrs. K was never reimbursed by Mary for any of the expenditures. This is probably what led to Mrs. K's book.

Overall, though, with all of Mary's faults, there certainly is enough evidence that, at least during the pre-presidential years, Mary gave Abe what he needed, more often than not.

For those of you who get the Surratt Courier, I hope that you have read the short, but succinct article that Donna McCreary did for our October issue. She listed ten very good reasons for Mary Lincoln's demeanor to have changed over the years. I doubt that many of us - raised in the society of her time - would have held up any better.

Liz, I agree with you on Mary's behavior during the White House years and afterwards. Much of this is not to justify. Still I think a part of it resulted from that she generally was different to what women in those days were expected to be. Also I think she was aware of her mistakes. And to understand doesn't mean to justify. (I admit, Robert I find much more difficult to understand.) However, her behavior against Tad after Willie's death indeed is not at all understandable (to me). But the question was if A. Lincoln ever regretted his marriage. Well, he ofted showed he was aware that nobody is perfect and everyone has positive and less positive character traits. And he was willing to forgive mistakes and misbehaving. About Mary's tempers he once said: "It does her a power of good, and it doesn't hurt me any." I think A. Lincoln was aware Mary was far more extreme than others (positive as negative) - probably due to what today is called "bipolar disorder" - and I think he cared much more for the positive traits and for what he and Mary shared - love for children, poetry, theater, politics and travelling. Imagine Ann Ruthledge or Mary Owens as First Lady - how would they have represented this role, how would they have dealt with politics, politicians, people and the war?
Interestingly, children always liked Mary. Julia I. Spriggs e.g. said:"She was the kind of woman that children liked, and children would be attracted to her." Julia Taft felt similar during the White House Years, and in later life, one of Mary's "true friends" in the Edwards' house when she came from Batavia was her grandnephew Edward Lewis Baker, Jr. Children are less influenced in their judgement on people and their behavior by what other people or society rules predict.

These are my questions to (all of) you:
What do you think of Ann Ruthledge or Mary Owens as First Lady? And - had A. Lincoln survived presidency - what would his marriage have developed like? Positive? The same? Worse? How would Mary have developed? Having more time - how would A. Lincoln have (re)acted e.g. regarding her "shopping addiction"?

IMO, Abraham saw in Ann many of the personal qualities he had seen in his mother and step mother, along with her attractive physical appearance.
Not sure about Mary Owens. Maybe he fell in love with her at first sight, but then took a second look? She was intelligent, but on thinking it over, not someone he wanted to be married to, and he was a bit clumsy in ending the relationship. These two women had a background a little more similar to his own. With Mary, she was attractive, intelligent, well educated, shared similar political beliefs, from a wealthy and connected family. She was, on paper, a good catch for him. I think he loved her, but I'm not sure what he was reluctant about. Maybe the long term, final commitment? He was conscious that he could not provide her with the life style she was accustomed to, and that probably bothered him. He had known her long enough to have some idea of what he was getting into, good and bad. Of the three Eva mentions above, she was the one most capable of helping Abraham become president.

I doubt that Ann Rutledge would have been well-equipped for the roll of First Lady and probably would not have liked being in the public eye of the presidency. If Lincoln had survived, his marriage probably would have continued to be strong. However, Mary's shopping addiction and other personality problems would have put some strains on their relationship.

Quote:What do you think of Ann Ruthledge or Mary Owens as First Lady? And - had A. Lincoln survived presidency - what would his marriage have developed like? Positive? The same? Worse? How would Mary have developed? Having more time - how would A. Lincoln have (re)acted e.g. regarding her "shopping addiction"?

I still don't believe Lincoln would have been president if he hadn't married Mary. But Mary Owens would have been more likely to help Lincoln along while I still believe if he had married Ann Rutledge, he might have been a legislator/lawyer his whole life or maybe governor but no higher. I even think it's quite possible he might have been Springfield's funniest lawyer and nothing more had he married Ann. Mary Lincoln and his ambition were the perfect pair.

Best
Rob

I have to agree with Rob that Mary Todd was what Abe Lincoln needed to spur him on to greatness. I think she had the brains to keep up with him, the social training to be an asset (which I doubt the other prairie ladies had), the political connections to help him, and most of all the desire to be in the White House. Except for the brains, she had things at first that he did not have - and she knew how to develop those attributes in him.

As for her treatment of Tad upon the death of Willie, I can understand it to some degree. My grandparents lost a son at twenty-two-months. He died on July 6, 1902, and their second child was born on July 10, 1902. My grandmother had nothing to do with the new baby for weeks. My uncle was no replacement for the one she had lost. In the end, he became the apple of her eye, but not while her heart was broken from losing the first-born. From the little that I have read, Tad was of a different temperament from Willie also -- maybe a little more difficult to control when a mother is suffering?

As for the shopping addiction: I have mentioned the book Crowns of Thorns and Glory before - a comparison of Mary Lincoln and Varina Davis. It has been years since I read it, but one thing stuck in my mind. When she became First Lady, many of the merchants (especially in New York) sent items to her in order to gain favor and also publicity for their merchandise. She assumed they were gifts and used them. She found out later that bills had been sent separately. Whether this is true or not, I don't know; however, it bears a ring of truth to me. And, Donna McCreary has already given us a logical explanation for her purchase of so many gloves.