Post Reply 
The Physical Lincoln
07-10-2012, 05:58 PM
Post: #16
RE: The Physical Lincoln
Laurie,
Alert the media, because we agree on something!Big Grin

Best
Rob

Abraham Lincoln in the only man, dead or alive, with whom I could have spent five years without one hour of boredom.
--Ida M. Tarbell

I want the respect of intelligent men, but I will choose for myself the intelligent.
--Carl Sandburg
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-18-2012, 07:06 AM
Post: #17
RE: The Physical Lincoln
I think I saw something on TV about it. Didn't a family who owned a piece of Laura Keene's blood-stained dress (which was supposed to have Lincoln's blood on it) offer up a bit of it for DNA testing?

Bill Nash
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-18-2012, 07:23 AM
Post: #18
RE: The Physical Lincoln
Bill-Yes you did.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-27-2013, 03:02 PM
Post: #19
RE: The Physical Lincoln
Excerpt from Dr. Soto's abstract posted on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22504423

"... The present report examines newly discovered phenotypic information about Lincoln's biological mother, Nancy Hanks Lincoln, and concludes that (a) Lincoln's mother was skeletally marfanoid, (b) the President and his mother were highly concordant for the presence of numerous facial features found in various transforming growth factor β disorders, and © Lincoln's mother, like her son, had hypotonic skeletal muscles, resulting in myopathic facies and 'pseudodepression'. These conclusions establish that mother and son had the same monogenic autosomal dominant marfanoid disorder. A description of Nancy Hanks Lincoln as coarse-featured, and a little-known statement that a wasting disease contributed to her death at age 34, lends support to the multiple endocrine neoplasia type 2B hypothesis."

Questions: Wow, that's a big leap! How credible is this new information he found about the physical appearance of Nancy Hanks? Didn't she die of Milk Sickness?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-27-2013, 03:16 PM
Post: #20
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-27-2013 03:02 PM)Anita Wrote:  Didn't she die of Milk Sickness?

That's what most all books say, but forum member Dr. Ed Steers has posted a different theory concerning the cause of death. There is a second post about Brucellosis here.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-28-2013, 07:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-28-2013 08:00 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)
Post: #21
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-05-2012 04:08 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  A book titled The Physical Lincoln by Dr. John Sotos has recently been published. In the book Dr. Sotos argues that Lincoln suffered from a rare genetic cancer syndrome called MEN2B (multiple endocrine neoplasia, type 2B). Sotos says that Lincoln did not have Marfan's syndrome, some of his boys and probably his mother had the same syndrome, and that the president had less than a year to live prior to the assassination. Included in Sotos' arguments are the fact that Lincoln had the classic body shape of those suffering from MEN2B. Sotos' feels Lincoln was dying of cancer during the last months of his life. Thyroid cancer is particularly common among people who have MEN2B.

Any opinions - was Lincoln dying of cancer when he was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth?
This is a most interesting thread (which I've in detail read but now) and theory. According to all the worrying descriptions of A. Lincoln's outward appearance towards and at the end of his presidency I had the same thought in mind, and I also wondered if Lincoln himself felt something like that when he said to Browning:" I must die sometime". I've experienced at least three times that people made similar statements in a serious manner and suddenly and unexpectedly died of cancer just a few month later.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-28-2013, 08:22 AM
Post: #22
RE: The Physical Lincoln
I wonder, though, if Lincoln made such statements more because of the weight of the responsibilities of his office that he shouldered throughout the Civil War. I think there is a fair chance that he would have died shortly after his first term of office had he survived only because of the enormous pressures he bore.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-28-2013, 01:52 PM
Post: #23
RE: The Physical Lincoln
Lincoln hardly ate or slept and with the stress (I think of him as a prisoner of
war) his immune system would be compromised. He could have had a number of different conditions including cancer.

What bothers me most about Soto's 2b theory is that no mass was found on his neck or that of Eddie, Willie or Tad. Other than fleshy lips, none of the children had marfanoid characteristics that I can see, including long faces.

More will be revealed or maybe not.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-28-2013, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-28-2013 04:06 PM by Gene C.)
Post: #24
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-28-2013 04:05 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I wouldn't take my dog to Dr. Soto

Thanks, I wouldn't take you either
-Fido-

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-28-2013, 07:30 PM
Post: #25
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-09-2012 08:26 AM)Ed Steers Wrote:  Dr. Soto's diagnosis concluding that Lincoln had the rare disease we refer to today as MEN2B is based primarily on "lip lumps" (See Soto, Chapter 14).

I do not think it's fair to say that the diagnosis is "based primarily" on lip lumps.

True, Sotos says, "Lincoln's lips were the key element that led me to the diagnosis of MEN2B". Indeed, he recounts how he had originally dismissed MEN2B because only Lincoln's lower lip showed signs that might be explicable by that diagnosis: Sotos had thought both lips were always affected. Later, he discovered that some MEN2B cases affect only one lip. Voila! MEN2B was a possibility after all. (I cannot now find that passage, though. Sorry.)

On page 240, however, he diagrams how the MEN2B diagnosis explains 50 "observable characteristics".

He does qualify his diagnosis: "The diagram does not show the uncertainty underlying many of the connections. It unmistakably shows, however, that MEN2B has the potential to unify an astonishing number of Lincoln's features under one root cause."

It is unfair to dismiss his diagnosis piecemeal, as it seems to me to have been done on the thread, at least by some: Sotos argues that a multitude of "observable characteristics", some of them highly unusual, that are rarely observed together in one person, are best explained by MEN2B as the underlying cause.

I have endured a great deal of ridicule without much malice; and have received a great deal of kindness, not quite free from ridicule. I am used to it. (Letter to James H. Hackett, November 2, 1863)
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-28-2013, 07:59 PM (This post was last modified: 07-28-2013 08:35 PM by Anita.)
Post: #26
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-28-2013 07:30 PM)ELCore Wrote:  
(07-09-2012 08:26 AM)Ed Steers Wrote:  Dr. Soto's diagnosis concluding that Lincoln had the rare disease we refer to today as MEN2B is based primarily on "lip lumps" (See Soto, Chapter 14).

I do not think it's fair to say that the diagnosis is "based primarily" on lip lumps.

True, Sotos says, "Lincoln's lips were the key element that led me to the diagnosis of MEN2B". Indeed, he recounts how he had originally dismissed MEN2B because only Lincoln's lower lip showed signs that might be explicable by that diagnosis: Sotos had thought both lips were always affected. Later, he discovered that some MEN2B cases affect only one lip. Voila! MEN2B was a possibility after all. (I cannot now find that passage, though. Sorry.)

On page 240, however, he diagrams how the MEN2B diagnosis explains 50 "observable characteristics".

He does qualify his diagnosis: "The diagram does not show the uncertainty underlying many of the connections. It unmistakably shows, however, that MEN2B has the potential to unify an astonishing number of Lincoln's features under one root cause."

It is unfair to dismiss his diagnosis piecemeal, as it seems to me to have been done on the thread, at least by some: Sotos argues that a multitude of "observable characteristics", some of them highly unusual, that are rarely observed together in one person, are best explained by MEN2B as the underlying cause.

(07-28-2013 07:30 PM)ELCore Wrote:  
(07-09-2012 08:26 AM)Ed Steers Wrote:  Dr. Soto's diagnosis concluding that Lincoln had the rare disease we refer to today as MEN2B is based primarily on "lip lumps" (See Soto, Chapter 14).

I do not think it's fair to say that the diagnosis is "based primarily" on lip lumps.

True, Sotos says, "Lincoln's lips were the key element that led me to the diagnosis of MEN2B". Indeed, he recounts how he had originally dismissed MEN2B because only Lincoln's lower lip showed signs that might be explicable by that diagnosis: Sotos had thought both lips were always affected. Later, he discovered that some MEN2B cases affect only one lip. Voila! MEN2B was a possibility after all. (I cannot now find that passage, though. Sorry.)

On page 240, however, he diagrams how the MEN2B diagnosis explains 50 "observable characteristics".

He does qualify his diagnosis: "The diagram does not show the uncertainty underlying many of the connections. It unmistakably shows, however, that MEN2B has the potential to unify an astonishing number of Lincoln's features under one root cause."

It is unfair to dismiss his diagnosis piecemeal, as it seems to me to have been done on the thread, at least by some: Sotos argues that a multitude of "observable characteristics", some of them highly unusual, that are rarely observed together in one person, are best explained by MEN2B the underlying cause.

You make an excellent point with Lincoln and what Soto is attempting to do. I was referring more to the three boys whom he says died young from MEN2b. He uses the lumps on the lips to show they had inherited it from Lincoln, but I don't see a multitude of "observable characteristics"
in the boys and there's no verified photo of Eddie.

But I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher. I will follow this topic-it's fascinating- but will stay out of the opinion business. Thanks, Anita
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-29-2013, 08:14 PM
Post: #27
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-28-2013 07:59 PM)Anita Wrote:  You make an excellent point with Lincoln and what Soto is attempting to do. I was referring more to the three boys whom he says died young from MEN2b. He uses the lumps on the lips to show they had inherited it from Lincoln, but I don't see a multitude of "observable characteristics" in the boys and there's no verified photo of Eddie.

But I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher. I will follow this topic-it's fascinating- but will stay out of the opinion business. Thanks, Anita

I believe the multitude of "observable characteristics" are only of Lincoln himself.

Dr. Sotos is positing a genetic disorder, so there must be somebody else in Lincoln's family who had it: either an ancestor or a descendant. But there is precious little to go on with respect to Lincoln's mother and his sons, so Sotos must emphasize whatever there is.

I have endured a great deal of ridicule without much malice; and have received a great deal of kindness, not quite free from ridicule. I am used to it. (Letter to James H. Hackett, November 2, 1863)
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-30-2013, 11:45 AM
Post: #28
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-29-2013 08:14 PM)ELCore Wrote:  
(07-28-2013 07:59 PM)Anita Wrote:  You make an excellent point with Lincoln and what Sotos is attempting to do. I was referring more to the three boys whom he says died young from MEN2b. He uses the lumps on the lips to show they had inherited it from Lincoln, but I don't see a multitude of "observable characteristics" in the boys and there's no verified photo of Eddie.

But I'm not a doctor or a medical researcher. I will follow this topic-it's fascinating- but will stay out of the opinion business. Thanks, Anita

I believe the multitude of "observable characteristics" are only of Lincoln himself.

Dr. Sotos is positing a genetic disorder, so there must be somebody else in Lincoln's family who had it: either an ancestor or a descendant. But there is precious little to go on with respect to Lincoln's mother and his sons, so Sotos must emphasize whatever there is.

Is it possible to carry MEN2B and die of TB or other causes first ? I'm thinking of the boys.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-30-2013, 02:23 PM
Post: #29
RE: The Physical Lincoln
Anita, Dr. Sotos (of course) is very focused on his own theory. Here, for example, are what he has to say about the deaths of Eddie, Willie, and Tad:

Eddie - "Was Eddie's death, one month shy of his fourth birthday, the result of MEN2B? It is impossible to be sure, but we can speculate....Eddie may indeed had died of tuberculosis, but he may also have died of a different wasting disease - cancer. Age 4 is not too early to die from cancer in MEN2B. Moreover if Eddie did not die of cancer directly, cancer may have weakened him such that another disease, such as tuberculosis, was able to take hold and kill him."

Willie - "The precise diagnosis of Willie's infection is disputed, but of little importance to us. The riddles of Eddie's case apply here, too: did cancer or MEN2B somehow predispose Willie to an infection? Again the answer is unknown."

Tad - "For me Tad's greatest mystery has been his death at age 18. The final illness included weight loss, the inability to sleep flat, fluid around the lungs, an illness lasting weeks to months, and probably no fever. A cancer in the chest could explain all these findings."
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-30-2013, 03:29 PM
Post: #30
RE: The Physical Lincoln
(07-30-2013 02:23 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Anita, Dr. Sotos (of course) is very focused on his own theory. Here, for example, are what he has to say about the deaths of Eddie, Willie, and Tad:

Eddie - "Was Eddie's death, one month shy of his fourth birthday, the result of MEN2B? It is impossible to be sure, but we can speculate....Eddie may indeed had died of tuberculosis, but he may also have died of a different wasting disease - cancer. Age 4 is not too early to die from cancer in MEN2B. Moreover if Eddie did not die of cancer directly, cancer may have weakened him such that another disease, such as tuberculosis, was able to take hold and kill him."

Willie - "The precise diagnosis of Willie's infection is disputed, but of little importance to us. The riddles of Eddie's case apply here, too: did cancer or MEN2B somehow predispose Willie to an infection? Again the answer is unknown."

Tad - "For me Tad's greatest mystery has been his death at age 18. The final illness included weight loss, the inability to sleep flat, fluid around the lungs, an illness lasting weeks to months, and probably no fever. A cancer in the chest could explain all these findings."

Thanks. Hopefully something will come of the DNA studies.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: