Troy, in your first statement you said "he enjoyed fishing". Now it seems to me you say the opposite. And still I would like to know from where you got he wouldn't go near a fishing pole as an adult.

I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that hunting and fishing were forms of enjoyment in Lincoln's early years. They were tasks related to providing food for the family. Once Lincoln became a "working man," I doubt that he needed to rely on those sources.

It is also just a guess on my part, but I think of a him as a man who was always looking to learn. How would either of those activities increase his educational levels?

I have a little time now and would like to respond to some of the statements made on this thread during the last couple of days:

1. Yes, Lincoln did play "town ball." Yes, he hit a ball with a stick and ran the bases. There is at least one eyewitness account, and probably more, appearing in Herndon's Informants and/or other personal reminiscences published in the late 19th century, of Lincoln playing ball. The particular account I can remember actually described Lincoln running the bases with coattails flying. Not that this is so important, but it's a fact, nevertheless.

2. It's true that Lincoln did not fish as an adult. However, he was often near fishing poles. One of his frequent companions during his time in New Salem was the mysterious Jack Kelso, with whom Lincoln was able to talk about Shakespeare and poetry. Kelso was a very keen fisherman, and Lincoln was often seen with Kelso as the latter fished.

3. The term "animal rights," if it existed during Lincoln's time, was not in common usage. There may have been a few vegetarians then, but it seems doubtful to me - especially when speaking of the frontier people who settled Illinois along with Lincoln. Lincoln, and probably everyone else on the prairie, wore animal skins of one kind or another. It was either that or not keep warm. That does not mean, however, that Lincoln was not humane toward animals. In fact, the opposite was true:

**Several people recalled that, as a boy, Lincoln wrote an essay advocating for the humane treatment of animals.
**Lincoln enjoined his young playmates from abusing turtles.
**He once observed that an ant's life is just as precious to it as a human's life is to the human.
**Before his days as a lawyer, he had apparently gotten dressed up to go somewhere and, while walking toward his destination in a remote area, found a 300-pound pig mired down in mud. Lincoln initially preferred to continue on and not get his clothes messed up, but he was too concerned about the pig. Thus, he soiled his clothing as he helped the animal out of the mud, because, otherwise, as he thought, the pig probably would have died.
**Some years later, as a lawyer, he was riding with some colleagues when some of them realized that he was no longer with them. When he finally caught up with them, he told them that he had stayed behind to find the nest that baby birds had fallen out of so that the "mother" would be sure to find them again. He explained that, if he hadn't done so, he wouldn't have been able to sleep that night.
**One day, Lincoln observed a man on a frothy-mouthed, exhausted-looking horse galloping by. Lincoln yelled at the man to stop and asked what the hurry was. The man said he had to take care of a land title before someone else beat him to it. Lincoln told the man to leave his horse so that the horse could be watered, wiped down, and rested; he let the man borrow his own horse, which was already watered and well-rested.

4. Lerone Bennett did not reveal anything that we all didn't already know about Lincoln. It seems that he "cherry-picked" and mischaracterized information that had been available for ages. Some months ago, I saw a documentary about Lincoln on public television, hosted by African-American historian Henry Louis Gates, Jr. (For trivia freaks, Gates was the Harvard academic who was arrested in 2009 by police for breaking into his own house in the Boston 'burbs and with whom President Obama arranged a "beer summit" to also include the white arresting officer and thus calm tensions.) Anyway, in this documentary, Gates examined the development of Lincoln's views on slavery and race, among other things. He gave a fairly balanced picture of our 16th president in this regard and interviewed some Lincoln authors along the way. One of them was Lerone Bennett, who explained how Lincoln had fallen from the pedestal on which Bennett's parents and other relations had placed him. Basically, Bennett suffered a serious blow once he grew up and learned that Lincoln's statements and actions regarding slavery and race were not the ideologically pure statements and actions that Bennett had been taught to believe. And here you see the seeds of Bennett's mission when writing Forced into Glory. He thought he had been betrayed. It may very well have been therapeutic, a way for Bennett to rid his mind of what he believed were the unforgivable falsehoods he had been taught.

5. Lincoln did not have to be ideologically pure to be anti-slavery and feel humane impulses toward African-Americans. The fact that Lincoln was a member of the American Colonization Society did not mean that he was not anti-slavery. It also did not mean that he harbored particularly racist views. (Note my word, "particularly.") It just meant that he could not envision an American society in which whites and blacks lived together in harmony. Frankly, given what happened after the Civil War, when southern whites refused to recognize southern blacks as co-equals, or even as co-humans in a new, multi-racial society, Lincoln's concerns had a certain legitimacy to them. (Yes, northern whites were plenty racist, too. But for some time after the Civil War, most blacks still lived in the South, and the racism was, until the civil rights legislation of the 1960s, much more institutionalized - and violent - than in the North.)

6. Lincoln and one other member of the Illinois legislature, a transplant from New England, took a big risk in 1837 by not endorsing an anti-abolitionist resolution of the Illinois House and then, some weeks later, introducing a separate resolution condemning slavery as bad policy and an inhumane institution while also condemning abolitionism as creating a bigger problem. This was not a half-hearted effort. It was real.

7. As a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, he voted for something called the Wilmot Proviso on numerous occasions, a provision that would have excluded slavery from the territories just acquired from Mexico. He also got ready to introduce a bill to free the slaves of the nation's capital, but pulled it back when he realized he was just not going to get much support for it. He didn't have to even consider introducing such a bill; his career was going along well enough without it.

To write a book aimed at destroying or tarnishing someone's reputation, in order to purge one's mind of unforgivable falsehoods taught to the author during his formative years about that person, seems like a rather mean-spirited thing to do.

And now we know why there was a Civil War.

(06-19-2013 02:29 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I have a little time now and would like to respond to some of the statements made on this thread during the last couple of days:

1. Yes, Lincoln did play "town ball." Yes, he hit a ball with a stick and ran the bases. There is at least one eyewitness account, and probably more, appearing in Herndon's Informants and/or other personal reminiscences published in the late 19th century, of Lincoln playing ball. The particular account I can remember actually described Lincoln running the bases with coattails flying. Not that this is so important, but it's a fact, nevertheless.

2. It's true that Lincoln did not fish as an adult. However, he was often near fishing poles. One of his frequent companions during his time in New Salem was the mysterious Jack Kelso, with whom Lincoln was able to talk about Shakespeare and poetry. Kelso was a very keen fisherman, and Lincoln was often seen with Kelso as the latter fished.

3. The term "animal rights," if it existed during Lincoln's time, was not in common usage. There may have been a few vegetarians then, but it seems doubtful to me - especially when speaking of the frontier people who settled Illinois along with Lincoln. Lincoln, and probably everyone else on the prairie, wore animal skins of one kind or another. It was either that or not keep warm. That does not mean, however, that Lincoln was not humane toward animals. In fact, the opposite was true:

**Several people recalled that, as a boy, Lincoln wrote an essay advocating for the humane treatment of animals.
**Lincoln enjoined his young playmates from abusing turtles.
**He once observed that an ant's life is just as precious to it as a human's life is to the human.
**Before his days as a lawyer, he had apparently gotten dressed up to go somewhere and, while walking toward his destination in a remote area, found a 300-pound pig mired down in mud. Lincoln initially preferred to continue on and not get his clothes messed up, but he was too concerned about the pig. Thus, he soiled his clothing as he helped the animal out of the mud, because, otherwise, as he thought, the pig probably would have died.
**Some years later, as a lawyer, he was riding with some colleagues when some of them realized that he was no longer with them. When he finally caught up with them, he told them that he had stayed behind to find the nest that baby birds had fallen out of so that the "mother" would be sure to find them again. He explained that, if he hadn't done so, he wouldn't have been able to sleep that night.
**One day, Lincoln observed a man on a frothy-mouthed, exhausted-looking horse galloping by. Lincoln yelled at the man to stop and asked what the hurry was. The man said he had to take care of a land title before someone else beat him to it. Lincoln told the man to leave his horse so that the horse could be watered, wiped down, and rested; he let the man borrow his own horse, which was already watered and well-rested.

4. Lerone Bennett did not reveal anything that we all didn't already know about Lincoln. It seems that he "cherry-picked" and mischaracterized information that had been available for ages. Some months ago, I saw a documentary about Lincoln on public television, hosted by African-American historian Henry Louis Gates, Jr. (For trivia freaks, Gates was the Harvard academic who was arrested in 2009 by police for breaking into his own house in the Boston 'burbs and with whom President Obama arranged a "beer summit" to also include the white arresting officer and thus calm tensions.) Anyway, in this documentary, Gates examined the development of Lincoln's views on slavery and race, among other things. He gave a fairly balanced picture of our 16th president in this regard and interviewed some Lincoln authors along the way. One of them was Lerone Bennett, who explained how Lincoln had fallen from the pedestal on which Bennett's parents and other relations had placed him. Basically, Bennett suffered a serious blow once he grew up and learned that Lincoln's statements and actions regarding slavery and race were not the ideologically pure statements and actions that Bennett had been taught to believe. And here you see the seeds of Bennett's mission when writing Forced into Glory. He thought he had been betrayed. It may very well have been therapeutic, a way for Bennett to rid his mind of what he believed were the unforgivable falsehoods he had been taught.

5. Lincoln did not have to be ideologically pure to be anti-slavery and feel humane impulses toward African-Americans. The fact that Lincoln was a member of the American Colonization Society did not mean that he was not anti-slavery. It also did not mean that he harbored particularly racist views. (Note my word, "particularly.") It just meant that he could not envision an American society in which whites and blacks lived together in harmony. Frankly, given what happened after the Civil War, when southern whites refused to recognize southern blacks as co-equals, or even as co-humans in a new, multi-racial society, Lincoln's concerns had a certain legitimacy to them. (Yes, northern whites were plenty racist, too. But for some time after the Civil War, most blacks still lived in the South, and the racism was, until the civil rights legislation of the 1960s, much more institutionalized - and violent - than in the North.)

6. Lincoln and one other member of the Illinois legislature, a transplant from New England, took a big risk in 1837 by not endorsing an anti-abolitionist resolution of the Illinois House and then, some weeks later, introducing a separate resolution condemning slavery as bad policy and an inhumane institution while also condemning abolitionism as creating a bigger problem. This was not a half-hearted effort. It was real.

7. As a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, he voted for something called the Wilmot Proviso on numerous occasions, a provision that would have excluded slavery from the territories just acquired from Mexico. He also got ready to introduce a bill to free the slaves of the nation's capital, but pulled it back when he realized he was just not going to get much support for it. He didn't have to even consider introducing such a bill; his career was going along well enough without it.

Thank you for taking the time to lay these things out!

Just a note on Mr. Bennett: I am a member of the board of advisers for The Lincoln Forum and also served as such for the Abraham Lincoln Bicentennial Commission. A number of years ago, Lerone Bennett was invited to be a presenter at the annual conference of The Lincoln Forum in Gettysburg. There had been some undercurrents from members of the Forum as to why he had been invited to speak, but it was felt that all sides of public thought on Lincoln deserved to be aired.

While I am not a proponent of Mr. Bennett, I will say that he was a dynamic (and often convincing) speaker and delivered his thoughts carefully for maximum effect. It was obvious that he had done his homework and could cite reasons for his statements. He had also anticipated audience reactions and questions that were likely to come up. He was prepared.

I doubt that he changed any opinions of Lincoln among the 300+ members of the audience, but he certainly did not come across as someone venting his spleen about being hoodwinked about Lincoln in his childhood.

(06-19-2013 06:15 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Just a note on Mr. Bennett: I am a member of the board of advisers for The Lincoln Forum and also served as such for the Abraham Lincoln Bicentennial Commission. A number of years ago, Lerone Bennett was invited to be a presenter at the annual conference of The Lincoln Forum in Gettysburg. There had been some undercurrents from members of the Forum as to why he had been invited to speak, but it was felt that all sides of public thought on Lincoln deserved to be aired.

While I am not a proponent of Mr. Bennett, I will say that he was a dynamic (and often convincing) speaker and delivered his thoughts carefully for maximum effect. It was obvious that he had done his homework and could cite reasons for his statements. He had also anticipated audience reactions and questions that were likely to come up. He was prepared.

I doubt that he changed any opinions of Lincoln among the 300+ members of the audience, but he certainly did not come across as someone venting his spleen about being hoodwinked about Lincoln in his childhood.

Perhaps your spleen-venting radar was a little off.

I joined this thread because I believe that people can be misled when people talk about events and they do not specify the time period when it occurred. If you ask--did Lincoln enjoy fishing? I would say yes. If you asked--did Lincoln hate fishing? I would say yes. The answer depends on the time period you are talking about.

Eva said, "Troy, in your first statement you said "he enjoyed fishing". Now it seems to me you say the opposite. And still I would like to know from where you got he wouldn't go near a fishing pole as an adult."

The statement you quote was an opinion, the words were mine. There seems to have been a change in Lincoln's philosophy about hunting and fishing. As a child he went hunting and fishing and gave it up when he became an adult.
Perhaps Lincoln never enjoyed fishing, but took satisfaction in putting food on the table.

I do not like to mow the lawn, but I do like the look of a newly mowed lawn. I will continue to mow the lawn. Do I hate to mow the lawn? No. Do I love to mow the lawn? No. It is something that needs to be done, maybe Lincoln felt that way about fishing.

Ward Lamon commented in is book Life of Lincoln on the subject.
When Abraham was seven-years-old Dennis Hanks led him on numerous fishing trips. p.30
While Lincoln was living in New Salem Lamon said, "Mr. Lincoln hated fishing with all his heart." p.139
To me that means that he would not go near a fishing pole. I could have worded it better.

I said that young Lincoln did not hit the ball with a stick and run the bases. I will stick by my statement and challenge anyone to prove me wrong. This brings us back to the need for setting the time and place. Lincoln did play town ball in Springfield when he was forty years old with other lawyers and nearby businessmen. If you simple say Lincoln played town ball. Some may think that as a child he played town ball. To avoid confusion it becomes necessary, at times, to state the time period.
Little things like "with coattails flying" do become important when you realize that the lawyer Lincoln was playing fully clothed in his business attire. Don't forgot to mention that he was also wearing a top hat when running the bases.

Lincoln did have a soft spot for animals at times. On his second trip to New Orleans with Denton Offutt and John Hanks the following happened. Stopping along the riverside settlements to sell goods, Denton bought some hogs to resale further down river. The boys were having a difficult time controlling the hogs on the raft when Lincoln had the idea to sew their eyelid shut. Lincoln held the hogs noise, John the tails, and Denton sowed the hogs eyes shut.

(06-19-2013 09:25 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote:  Eva said, "Troy, in your first statement you said "he enjoyed fishing". Now it seems to me you say the opposite. And still I would like to know from where you got he wouldn't go near a fishing pole as an adult."

The statement you quote was an opinion, the words were mine. There seems to have been a change in Lincoln's philosophy about hunting and fishing. As a child he went hunting and fishing and gave it up when he became an adult.
Perhaps Lincoln never enjoyed fishing, but took satisfaction in putting food on the table.

I do not like to mow the lawn, but I do like the look of a newly mowed lawn. I will continue to mow the lawn. Do I hate to mow the lawn? No. Do I love to mow the lawn? No. It is something that needs to be done, maybe Lincoln felt that way about fishing.

Ward Lamon commented in is book Life of Lincoln on the subject.
When Abraham was seven-years-old Dennis Hanks led him on numerous fishing trips. p.30
While Lincoln was living in New Salem Lamon said, "Mr. Lincoln hated fishing with all his heart." p.139
To me that means that he would not go near a fishing pole. I could have worded it better.

Thanks, Troy.

(06-19-2013 09:25 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote:  I said that young Lincoln did not hit the ball with a stick and run the bases. I will stick by my statement and challenge anyone to prove me wrong. This brings us back to the need for setting the time and place. Lincoln did play town ball in Springfield when he was forty years old with other lawyers and nearby businessmen. If you simple say Lincoln played town ball. Some may think that as a child he played town ball. To avoid confusion it becomes necessary, at times, to state the time period.
Little things like "with coattails flying" do become important when you realize that the lawyer Lincoln was playing fully clothed in his business attire. Don't forgot to mention that he was also wearing a top hat when running the bases.

Mr. Cowan, what is your definition of "young"? If you want to nitpick, I can nitpick the use of that word. Lincoln was a lawyer as early as 1837. He wasn't even 30 years old yet. Compared to when he left for Washington 23 years later, he was young, even if he wasn't a "youth." In fact, I would argue that he was still young in the 1840s and early 1850s. Also, since I am now 53 and still consider myself a young person, and Lincoln was just 51 when he left for Washington as the president-elect, I would actually consider him to have been young at that time!

Let's see what else we can nitpick....

(06-20-2013 09:59 AM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  Mr. Cowan, what is your definition of "young"?
Also, since I am now 53 and still consider myself a young person, and Lincoln was just 51 when he left for Washington as the president-elect, I would actually consider him to have been young at that time!

That's right Liz, 53 years is not old
(If your a tree )
I am a few years older than you.

Gray hair is a like a crown of glory; it is attained in the path of righteousness (Proverbs 16:31)

(06-19-2013 08:14 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  

(06-19-2013 06:15 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Just a note on Mr. Bennett: I am a member of the board of advisers for The Lincoln Forum and also served as such for the Abraham Lincoln Bicentennial Commission. A number of years ago, Lerone Bennett was invited to be a presenter at the annual conference of The Lincoln Forum in Gettysburg. There had been some undercurrents from members of the Forum as to why he had been invited to speak, but it was felt that all sides of public thought on Lincoln deserved to be aired.

While I am not a proponent of Mr. Bennett, I will say that he was a dynamic (and often convincing) speaker and delivered his thoughts carefully for maximum effect. It was obvious that he had done his homework and could cite reasons for his statements. He had also anticipated audience reactions and questions that were likely to come up. He was prepared.

I doubt that he changed any opinions of Lincoln among the 300+ members of the audience, but he certainly did not come across as someone venting his spleen about being hoodwinked about Lincoln in his childhood.

Perhaps your spleen-venting radar was a little off.

Or maybe I'm just more tolerant of opposing views.

Liz and Gene, that's a good point. A German proverb goes like "one is just as old as one feels" (so I have been 20 for 20 years now)

(06-13-2013 05:13 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  Lincoln did love and care about animals, as Eva said, but he seemed to have a special affinity for cats.

I agree, but I do have a question for anyone who might have an answer. As some of you may know my "retirement hobby" has been to operate a Lincoln website intended especially for students. I would guess that since 1996 I have received at least 100 letters (many from students) asking if Lincoln really said, "I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being." I have searched everywhere for a source for the quote, and I cannot find that Lincoln ever said this. I tell people Lincoln never said it. I see the quote on lots of websites...even on individuals' tee shirts...but I just don't think it's a legitimate Lincoln quote.

Has anyone ever seen a source for this quote?