That was the first I ever heard of a rumour about MTL getting drunk with Russian sailors.

Mary withstood a lot of strange rumors - I think at least one newspaper wrote that Confederate agents came by ladder to her bedroom window where she passed military secrets to them.

I read that Mary was determined to show the world that the 'U.S.' was a great power which was why she dressed accordingly. She also upgraded the decorations in the White House (true, exceeding her appropriation) from a "second-rate hotel" to one the nation could be proud of. The public, as was commonplace then, often roamed the White House and took pieces of the drapes, knicknacks, etc., as souvenirs of their visit. When the Lincolns moved in, there were holes in the floors and carpets, the state china was incomplete, and the walls were filthy with accumulated smoke stains and soot. This was something Mary could tackle. If only she'd shopped locally ...

One thing I think is very much bad revisionism in what the UVA has to say about Mary:

"It was Mary who had fired Abraham Lincoln's political ambitions and in 1849, had pressured him not to accept the Oregon governorship. Her involvement was so integral that when Lincoln won in November, he exclaimed, "Mary, Mary, we are elected!""

I have heard versions of this before, but I think it is not true historically.

Mary was very ambitious for her husband's political advancement.

However, there is NO reason to think she "fired" his political ambitions. He had them from a very young age. He first ran for office in 1832 and politics was his goal from then to his death. As the famous quote from Herndon states, "His ambition was a little engine that knew no rest."

This is also offered as proof of a poltical partnership between them, but it is a very thin reed to hang anything on:

"Her involvement was so integral that when Lincoln won in November, he exclaimed, "Mary, Mary, we are elected!""

I have been involved personally in a few political campaigns myself, and every time my team won, the person would usually say, "We won!" or "We did it!" or something like that to us supporters. It is a meaningless expression. In the context of Lincoln saying it to his wife, isn't the more reasonable explanation is either that or "We won and are going to Washington together?" Not that she was so "integral" per se.

(03-17-2013 06:10 PM)Mike B. Wrote:  he exclaimed, "Mary, Mary, we are elected!""

Jean Baker uses A Reporter's Lincoln by Walter Barlow Stevens as her source for this quote. I am not familiar with Stevens' book. Does anyone know anything about it?

I'm with Mike B. on the ambition issue. Normally, I don't like to agree with Herndon, but he was right on his views of Lincoln's ambition.

As far as the Oregon governorship issue, I've also read, and quoted in my research, that position was declined in part due to the poor health of Eddie, their second son. I can't remember the citation off the top of my head; I'll look later on.

I've often wondered how things may have turned out differently if Lincoln had accepted that appointment. Would he have ended up in the White House anyway? Would he have stayed in the West? What would have happened?

Do you think that Mary's knowledge of politics - gained at an early age, from what I've read - may have been a detriment to Lincoln? I have seen it hinted at that she tried to include herself in political discussions among "the guys." I can imagine what reactions that could garner. Is there any substance to those hints?

I think it may have been a positive for Lincoln. Mary knew and had conversed with some of Lincoln's political heroes. He seemed to value her ideas and viewpoints. That probably gave an additional attraction between them that she would probably not get in a relationship with someone else. For a homely looking guy like him with no money, to atrtract and mary the belle of society who was good looking and came from a prestigious family, was a major coup for him. Being married to her instantly elevated him in that society (for a time) For the most part, I think her political instincts were pretty good. She did seem to be a bit paranoid and protective of him, with the idea that most people were nice to them because they wanted something from him.

Gene - I was thinking more along the lines of the establishment in Washington when she arrived as a fairly intelligent lady for her day. Did she attempt to interact with them in any way, and if so, was she rebuffed?

She tried, but for the most part - rebuffed. Southerners didn' trust her since she married Lincoln and was from IL and sent her oldest son to yankee schools. She had a bit of a haughty attitude. She had an unusually close relationship (while she was in the white house) with her black seamstress, Elizabeth Keckley. Northerners didn't trust her since she had relatives in the southern army (northern too) was from KY, and her family owned slaves. I think her fancy gowns tended to be a bit low cut for someone of her age and that didn't help. She had a bit of a popularity rivalry with Kate Chase, and her jealousy regarding her husband didn't help her any either.

I haven't read the Mary Lincoln Enigma, does it adress any of this?

If I remember correctly, this was a woman who had grown up under the tutelage of not only her father, but of Henry Clay. It would seem that she could have held her own among some of the old guys of Congress and Cabinet in those days. I would think that just the "threat" of a woman understanding the political game would have left a bad taste in some people's mouths.

(03-18-2013 02:48 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I think it may have been a positive for Lincoln. Mary knew and had conversed with some of Lincoln's political heroes. He seemed to value her ideas and viewpoints. That probably gave an additional attraction between them that she would probably not get in a relationship with someone else. For a homely looking guy like him with no money, to atrtract and mary the belle of society who was good looking and came from a prestigious family, was a major coup for him. Being married to her instantly elivated him in that society (for a time) For the most part, I think her political instincts were pretty good. She did seem to be a bit paranoid and protective of him, with the idea that most people were nice to them because they wanted something from him.

Gene,
I am not sure what evidence there is that Lincoln particularily valued Mary's political viewpoints. I can't seem to find a concrete example of this.
Remember Lincoln choice to go with the Republican Party in 1856 ultimately put him in the White House. It was against Mary's views because she was for the Know-Nothing anti-immigrant Party in 1856.

There is also evidence that his marriage hurt him politically in the short-run.
Remember he was talented enough and seen as a rising Whig leader in the state. He was already Whig floor-leader in the IL House.

He didn't get the Whig nomination to Congress for his district shortly after his marriage and he thought that his marriage to a wealthy family might have been why:

"It is truly gratifying to me to learn that while the people of Sangamon have cast me off, my old friends of Menard who have known me longest and best of any, still retain there confidence in me. It would astonish if not amuse, the older citizens of your County who twelve years ago knew me a strange[r], friendless, uneducated, penniless boy, working on a flat boat---at ten dollars per month to learn that I have been put down here as the candidate of pride, wealth, and arristocratic family distinction."

Good points Mike. It has been my general impression that Mary was a positive for Lincoln, I'll have to go back and dig through my books to see why I believe that. It's a bit like when an unatractive person marries a very attractive person. You wonder what qualities or what the good looking one saw in the other not so good looking one. (superficial, but true)

I have one of those CDV's of Mary Lincoln in her black mourning garb. As I looked at the photograph I wondered why-why did she attend a sitting for the photograph? Was she paid? Did she profit from the sales of the photos? She was in mourning. What motivated her to present at a studio for a sitting during that point in her life?

(06-02-2013 09:59 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  I have one of those CDV's of Mary Lincoln in her black mourning garb. As I looked at the photograph I wondered why-why did she attend a sitting for the photograph? Was she paid? Did she profit from the sales of the photos? She was in mourning. What motivated her to present at a studio for a sitting during that point in her life?

Which CDV do you have? I can think of three where Mary wore mourning attire. The first one was taken after Willie died. Mary is seated and has a black bonnet with a spray of white flowers. The second was taken near the time her brother Levi (a Union man) died. She is standing and turned to the right. The third is the famous 'ghost' photo.
I realize other historians may use different dates for these photos. However, based on fashion styles and other infomration, the ALPL is now using these dates for the photos.