Liz,

Excellent response to the prior posting, although it might provide reinforcement for more of the same. It is generally agreed that Lamon is not an unimpeachable source.

Joe

(05-28-2013, 03:12 PM)Joe Di Cola Wrote: Liz,

Excellent response to the prior posting, although it might provide reinforcement for more of the same. It is generally agreed that Lamon is not an unimpeachable source.

Joe

Hi Joe:
I didn't mean to rehash what had already been said. The beginning of this thread happened so long ago, that I'd forgotten what had been addressed. I was basically responding to Troy Cowan's very recent statements. Anyway, you're right - the answer as to New Salem's passing was already answered on the first page of this thread! Sorry about that!

Liz: I sure appreciated what you said. I was going to reply but you beat me to it. Personally, I don't use Lamon as a voice of authority at all-for reasons stated before.

(05-28-2013, 02:44 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: I wouldn't use Ward Lamon as a source to confirm any particular historical facts other than conversations Lamon had with Lincoln or incidents involving Lincoln that Lamon witnessed. Even then, Lamon's accuracy was suspect.

I'm pretty sure Lamon didn't show up in Illinois till after New Salem had ceased to exist, or at least that he didn't have any personal experiences in New Salem, so the whole Clary's Grove Boys thing would not have been within his direct knowledge.

It seems to me, from my reading, that New Salem "winked out," as Lincoln himself might have put it, once it became clear that the Sangamon River wasn't going to provide the great economic boon to the community they'd hoped it would be.

Liz,

Ward Lamon was President Abraham Lincoln's best friend. To put limits on him as a source would be a crime in my opinion.

The closest I could come to a resident of New Salem describing the Clary's Grove boys was William Herndon. William's parents lived 5 miles north-east of New Salem. His brother had a store in New Salem. William Herndon said "to the south-west, lay a strip of timber called Clary's Grove. The boys who lived there were a terror to the entire region."

Let me ask you, "would you like to live in such a place?"

Troy,

The closeness of a pair of friends is only one consideration in determining whether one friend's recollections of the other are accurate.

(But "best" friend of Lincoln is probably overstating it - I think the only person who qualified in that regard was Joshua Speed.)

An individual needs to have a good memory and no motivation for puffing up his own importance or misrepresenting or overdramatizing certain events in his friend's life to be considered reliable.

I'm not suggesting that the Clary's Grove Boys weren't rowdies. We all know they were. But suggesting that they held the entire town of New Salem in a state of terror is just plain silly.

Liz,

When I made mention of "reinforcement", I was not thinking that things were being rehashed. Rather, I was referring to the action-reaction effect of even responding to some posts because it will only result in another "Oh, Yeah?" rejoinder from those who, for example, see Lamon as an unimpeachable source. You and Bill and others are absolutely right in your assessment of Lamon.

Joe

(05-29-2013, 08:57 AM)Joe Di Cola Wrote: Liz,

When I made mention of "reinforcement", I was not thinking that things were being rehashed. Rather, I was referring to the action-reaction effect of even responding to some posts because it will only result in another "Oh, Yeah?" rejoinder from those who, for example, see Lamon as an unimpeachable source. You and Bill and others are absolutely right in your assessment of Lamon.

Joe

"Oh, yeah??"

(05-29-2013, 01:56 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:

(05-29-2013, 08:57 AM)Joe Di Cola Wrote: Liz,

When I made mention of "reinforcement", I was not thinking that things were being rehashed. Rather, I was referring to the action-reaction effect of even responding to some posts because it will only result in another "Oh, Yeah?" rejoinder from those who, for example, see Lamon as an unimpeachable source. You and Bill and others are absolutely right in your assessment of Lamon.

Joe

"Oh, yeah??"

Or, as my daughter would text: "LOL"

Gene said, "The river was not good enough for year round navigation, and the cost to make it that way was to expensive and not practical."

Petersburg is two miles north of New Salem on the very same river. If the river had anything to do with the death of New Salem, Petersburg would have the same problem.

Also, the railroad had nothing to do with the death of New Salem. The Alton & Sangamon Railroad began to be built in 1847. New Salem died ten years earlier.

Please give me the name of any person that moved from New Salem because of the difficulty in navigating the Samgamon.

I will tell you of a person that moved because of the Clary's Grove boys. One night the Clary's Grove boys broke every window in the Radford grocery. Fearful that the Clary's Grove boys would kill him next he took a $400 IOU for his store and moved away.

Liz, you said, "(But "best" friend of Lincoln is probably overstating it - I think the only person who qualified in that regard was Joshua Speed.)"

If we were talking about the time they both lived in Springfield, I would certainly agree. I believe that when they both got married, their friendship declined. I am unaware that Joshua Speed and President Abraham Lincoln were maintaining a close friendship. Ward Lamon and President Lincoln certainly had a tight relationship and many believe they were best friends.

Joe you said, "When I made mention of "reinforcement", I was not thinking that things were being rehashed. Rather, I was referring to the action-reaction effect of even responding to some posts because it will only result in another "Oh, Yeah?" rejoinder from those who, for example, see Lamon as an unimpeachable source. You and Bill and others are absolutely right in your assessment of Lamon."

Joe are you trying to open lines of communication of shut them down?

(05-29-2013, 10:18 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: Gene said, "The river was not good enough for year round navigation, and the cost to make it that way was to expensive and not practical."

Petersburg is two miles north of New Salem on the very same river. If the river had anything to do with the death of New Salem, Petersburg would have the same problem.

Not necessarily.....(see post 3 & 4) and Petersburg also grew due to its advantageous placement on the river compared with New Salem.

---

(05-28-2013, 08:56 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: William Herndon said "to the south-west, lay a strip of timber called Clary's Grove. The boys who lived there were a terror to the entire region."
Let me ask you, "would you like to live in such a place?"

If the Clary Grove Boys were so mean and tough, why didn't they just go down the road another two miles and intimidate everyone in Petersburg?

About Lamon and Lincoln I would say, Lamon was devoted to Lincoln and the latter appreciated Lamons loyality and his enthsiasm (and his songs), but I doubt they were as much on the same wavelenght as Lincoln and Speed (at least in the Springfield time).

People in the surrounding areas certainly heard of the brutal people that terrorized New Salem. If you were going to establish a good, safe and friendly place for the county seat, you would not select New Salem. Eventually the people of New Salem migrated to Petersburg and other friendlier places.

Last summer Rob started a good discussion on the forum of whether Lamon and Lincoln were ever really law partners. If interested, please click here.

I'm just wondring - how did Lamon address Lincoln? Did he ever just say "Lincoln" like Speed (and even Herndon sometimes) had done? If he solely addressed him formally, this, too, would contradict real friendship.

Eva,

It was common among early- to mid-nineteenth century men to greet and refer to one another by last name. Even Mary refered to Lincoln as father or Mr. Lincoln, although I imagine she also called him Abraham--but not Abe, a nickname that Lincoln did not care for.

Joe