Upon meeting Hilary Clinton-I told her that she was as strong as Mary Lincoln.She replied,"Thank You,but I don't see myself as that strong".

Maybe Elizabeth Kortright Monroe who was disliked. Maybe Jane Means Appleton Pierce who spent most of her time in the White House mourning the death of her son. Maybe Edith Bolling Galt Wilson who was strong enough to run the presidency after Wilson had his stroke and she was not much liked.

I suppose what you mean by "resembled." Mary Lincoln and Jacqueline Kennedy had certain things in common: both well-educated, spoke foreign languages, had a child die while in the White House, and have husbands who were presidents that were assassinated.

(08-03-2012 07:06 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  I suppose what you mean by "resembled." Mary Lincoln and Jacqueline Kennedy had certain things in common: both well-educated, spoke foreign languages, had a child die while in the White House, and have husbands who were presidents that were assassinated.

Yes, you are right. I was thinking of all the negatives. Mary also visited veterans in the Washington D. C. hospitals and worked with Mrs. Keckley to collect items for Freedmen and women.

All of your replys are excellent! I look at the positive and the negative in the History of the First-Ladies!

Also both Mary Lincoln and Jackie Kennedy did some extensive remodeling inside the White House- even though Mr. Lincoln thought the money spent was for "flub-dubs." I wonder if JFK was upset with money spent to renovate in the White House?

Did Jackie spend money to the same extend then? And did JFK know all about it from the beginning? (IMO he also was less indifferent about housing, comfort and lifestyle than Lincoln had been...)

I just read through this thread and instantly would think of Eleanor Roosevelt to resemble Mary. She backed her husband in politics and was active herself, she advocated for civil and human rights, she came from a wealthy family,she suffered from the loss of her parents in childhood (like Mary from her mothers') and her husband was president during wartimes.

What does "strong" mean in this context?

It could mean a lot of things.

(05-26-2013 11:49 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I just read through this thread and instantly would think of Eleanor Roosevelt to resemble Mary. She backed her husband in politics and was active herself, she advocated for civil and human rights, she came from a wealthy family,she suffered from the loss of her parents in childhood (like Mary from her mothers') and her husband was president during wartimes.

You're right, Eva, that there are some similarities in background circumstances between Mary Lincoln and Eleanor Roosevelt. But, of the two, Eleanor was even more her own woman than Mary. This could have been due to the differing times, but Eleanor had learned to function on her own long before FDR became president, in social work and then political issues. To some extent, this was because of the rift that formed between Eleanor and Franklin when she learned of his affair with Lucy Mercer. It was also because of FDR's fight with polio; he concentrated on getting better, and she went out into the wider world.

But during FDR's presidency, her chief function was not so much to be a social director or hostess (something which she did not have an aptitude for) but to be her husband's "eyes and ears" around the country and, during the war, around the world. Eleanor had a column during her husband's presidency called "My Day," which told of her experiences in her fact-gathering travels. Although Eleanor was a controversial figure like her husband, she tended to be very well-loved and admired, too. Mary, unfortunately, was controversial, and well-loved and admired by few.

And during their years as widows, their activities were radically different from each other. Mary spent the remainder of her life dealing with being a widow and worrying about money -and attempting to fend off her son's decision to have her committed to an insane asylum - whereas Eleanor became known as the "First Lady of the World," adopting human rights as her cause.

It's interesting that they both died around the same number of years after their husbands' respective deaths: Mary in 1882, 17 years after the assassination; and Eleanor in 1961, 16 years after FDR's fatal stroke. Mary's death was much more tragic given how miserable her life had been following the assassination.

Liz, as you said, times were different, and I wonder whether she could have been more actively engaged in politics than she was. When she met A.L. for the first time, she had already been a Whig. D. Donald, in his "Lincoln" biography, says that "At a time when women were not supposed to profess an interest in politics, she openly supported Harrison for President in 1840", and, for sure, she had a share in her husband's way to presidency. And didn't she also try to exercise influence in White House politics at the beginning? She begged for patronage seekers until Stanton stopped her, and according to Sumner, "Mary Lincoln meddled in nearly all patronage affairs of influence and matters of politics". I wouldn't speculate whether her intentions were selfish or if she truly believed to act for the benefit of her husband or the nation, but at least she obviously was willing to influence politics and to be more than just a hostess.

Perhaps-ML had the personality of sticking her nose in too many places! I have seen many careers ruined by a spouse with that kind of personality.Not only in politics,but-Kodak-Xerox-Bausch and Lomb and Education!

Yes, Mary was very interested in and knowledgeable about politics. But this did not translate into involvement in any of the political movements of the time - anti-slavery, women's suffrage, public schools, reform of psychiatric institutions. All of her energies, once she and Lincoln were married, were devoted to two things: running a household and acting as an informal political strategist and morale builder for her husband.

While she did express opinions on patronage issues during Lincoln's presidency (I think Sumner's statement that Mary was involved in all patronage had to have been a wild exaggeration), and would demand that Lincoln appoint so-and-so or not appoint so-and-so or fire so-and-so, these things had more to do with Mary's personal indebtedness to various individuals for all the free stuff she was getting and, in other instances, the belief that someone was out to get her husband politically. (She thought that her husband was not savvy regarding people's motivations - whom to trust, whom not to trust - but I think she was absolutely wrong about that. An important reason he succeeded so brilliantly was that he knew exactly how to handle diverse personalities.)

She did behave admirably as First Lady in her visits to thousands of wounded soldiers and in her aid to the freedmen. But I don't remember reading anywhere (yet) that she had her husband's ear on policy matters. In fact, my impression is that their time in the White House was more separate than together.

In a more modern time, Mary might have been more accomplished in her own right. There is no question that she was highly intelligent. However, her biographer, Jean Baker, said numerous times that Mary was not interested in women's rights and was even critical of other women's activities outside the home! I'd say that Mary was a bit conflicted in that regard.

Eva, I know that earlier you asked whether JFK had been concerned about Jacqueline's White House redecorating. I don't know the answer to that, but the differences between the Kennedys and the Lincolns were quite marked. For one thing, the Kennedys were ridiculously wealthy in their own right; ostentation probably was not a concern (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and they brought a huge amount of Hollywood-ish glamour to Washington DC. Also, by the 1960s, the time had likely long passed since anyone questioned the idea of spending on White House upkeep. As a universally-recognized, important symbol of the nation, there was no way that anyone was going to let the White House infrastructure or accoutrements fall into disrepair or neglect.

(05-28-2013 04:38 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Liz, as you said, times were different, and I wonder whether she could have been more actively engaged in politics than she was. When she met A.L. for the first time, she had already been a Whig. D. Donald, in his "Lincoln" biography, says that "At a time when women were not supposed to profess an interest in politics, she openly supported Harrison for President in 1840", and, for sure, she had a share in her husband's way to presidency. And didn't she also try to exercise influence in White House politics at the beginning? She begged for patronage seekers until Stanton stopped her, and according to Sumner, "Mary Lincoln meddled in nearly all patronage affairs of influence and matters of politics". I wouldn't speculate whether her intentions were selfish or if she truly believed to act for the benefit of her husband or the nation, but at least she obviously was willing to influence politics and to be more than just a hostess.

Liz, sounds most convincing. Against this background Mary's resemblance to E. Roosevelt drops to a superficial level.

(05-29-2013 06:30 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Liz, sounds most convincing. Against this background Mary's resemblance to E. Roosevelt drops to a superficial level.

In my opinion, there is no First Lady who measures up to Eleanor Roosevelt. She was very, very special.