(09-01-2012, 02:31 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: I think the issue concerning the shallow river at New Salem did bring about what would be Lincoln's invention. I've also read that a similar situation was observed by Lincoln while traveling in a vessel on the Detroit River near Fighting Island.

Where is Fighting Island??

Ah Gene you're too much! You know how scary that was when we saw that at the movies!

Am I just imagining it in my old brain or do I correctly recall that in historic New Salem-the Cooper's building the original structure-the only original structure left from Lincoln's day?

(04-16-2013, 07:58 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: Am I just imagining it in my old brain or do I correctly recall that in historic New Salem-the Cooper's building the original structure-the only original structure left from Lincoln's day?

Right! Not Onstott's house, just the adjoining cooperage itself. It was located in Petersburg to which it had been moved when Onstott relocated there.

Thanks Joe. My sanity is safe!

Since the village was named "New Salem"-was it a reference to the city of Salem, Mass.?

I don't know wether it refered to Salem, Mass., but I'm pretty sure the latter refered to the royal city of Melchizedek in the Old Testament, which most likely was the original Jerusalem.

I thought Melchizedek was a person?

Yes, maybe I expressed it the wrong way, the city was his residence, his seat of power.

The Salem from the Old Testament is later traditionally identified with the city of Jerusalem. Salem means "peace" and when Rutledge and Cameron named New Salem they offered clue to their thinking nor any reference to Salem, MA--but were more probably thinking of the ancient Salem and the meaning of the name. This would be consistent with the Christian belief prevalent in those communities in the first half of the nineteenth century.

Joe, that is helpful. Makes sense.

James Rutledge and John Cameron built a gristmill and a sawmill next to the town along side the Sangamon River. The town had promise, but New Salem died. New Salem didn't die a natural death--it was murdered.

Imagine moving to a new town and some of the residence challenged you to a fight. If you refused to fight or did poorly, you would be ridiculed forever. Only if you could beat them or fight them to a draw would you be welcomed into this town. The majority couldn't stand up to these bullies and move away.

Lincoln fought Jack Armstrong to a draw and was welcomed into the clan. Some writers like Herndon and Lamon describe the Clary's Grove boys as just a bunch of fun loving boys. To make Lincoln a man without faults, they had to minimize the brutality of the Clary's Grove boys.

Lincoln rocked the cradle of William Armstrong and spent many a night at the Armstrong home. When that baby grew up and became a bully like his father, he murdered a man by the name of Metzgar. Lincoln defending him. Lincoln used a lawyer's trick to convince the jury of William's innocence.

Source-- Lincoln, Davis, and Booth: family secrets

Troy: it's hard to believe that every newcomer to New Salem was challenged by town bullies. Would that include men with families? Ministers? Teachers? Lowly farmers? You make quite a statement by saying the village was"murdered." I think young Abraham Lincoln was challenged because he was young lanky and alone. It could have been bad timing for Lincoln to be in that situation. Does it say anywhere in the literature that New Salem died because of bullies?

No it doesn't. Most claim the Clary's Grove boys were a fun loving group of boys. The use of the word murder was mine.


From Abraham Lilncoln by Ellis Oberholtzer, page 21.

Near the town, in a strip of timber called Clary's Grove, resided a number of brutal rowdies with whom Lincoln soon came into close relations. Under pretense of regulating the morals of the neighborhood they insulted, attacked and maltreated the inhabitants, and finally they dared Lincoln to combat with their chief bully, Jack Armstrong.

From Life of Lincoln by Ward Lamon, page 91

the Clary's Grove boys were the terror of the countryside...a stranger's introduction was likely to be the most unpleasant part of his acquaintance with them. In fact, one of the objects of their association was to "initiate or naturalize new-comers,"...They first bantered the gentleman to run a foot-race, jump, pitch the mall, or wrestle; and, if none of these propositions seemed agreeable to him, they would request to know what he would do in case another gentleman should pull his nose, or squirt tobacco-juice in his face. If he did not seem entirely decided in his views as to what should properly be done in such a contingency, perhaps he would be nailed in a hog shed, and rolled down New-Salem hill; perhaps his ideas would be brightened by a brief ducking in the Sangamon; or perhaps he would be scoffed, kicked, and cuffed by a great number of persons in concert, until he reached the confines of the village, and then turned adrift as being unfit company for the people of that settlement. If, however, the stranger consented to engage in a tussle with one of his persecutors, it was usually arranged that there should be "foul play," with nameless impositions and insults, which would inevitably change the affair into a fight; and then, if the subject of all these practices proved indeed to be a man of mettle, he would be promptly received into " good society"

I wouldn't use Ward Lamon as a source to confirm any particular historical facts other than conversations Lamon had with Lincoln or incidents involving Lincoln that Lamon witnessed. Even then, Lamon's accuracy was suspect.

I'm pretty sure Lamon didn't show up in Illinois till after New Salem had ceased to exist, or at least that he didn't have any personal experiences in New Salem, so the whole Clary's Grove Boys thing would not have been within his direct knowledge.

It seems to me, from my reading, that New Salem "winked out," as Lincoln himself might have put it, once it became clear that the Sangamon River wasn't going to provide the great economic boon to the community they'd hoped it would be.