(04-07-2013 03:54 PM)ELCore Wrote:  

(04-03-2013 11:38 AM)wsanto Wrote:  Now if Hay wrote the Bixby letter in the course of his normal duties of writing a large percentage of Lincoln's correspondence why did he not use these same words and phrases in these other letters typically credited to Lincoln?

Perhaps because no other letters were of a kind, or concerning a topic, or about an occasion, that called for their use. How often would the word "beguile" in any of its many possible meanings, or synonyms, be occasioned in presidential correspondence? No matter who actually wrote it, apparently only once during Lincoln's.

So we can agree that the unique use of the word "beguile" does little to exclude Lincoln or promote Hay as the author?

Can we also stipulate that we don't know the context of Hay's discussions with others who have subsequently reported that Hay wrote the letter? Similar to stipulating that we don't know the context of Robert Lincoln's letter claiming that Hay admitted to him that he had nothing to do with the Bixby letter.

We also do not know the reasons Hay might have had for including or excluding any of Lincoln's letters to his scrapbook. If he wrote the majority of Lincoln's correspondence, as he reported to Herndon, then he excluded quite a bit of his work from his scrapbook.

We do have Hay's statement that the Bixby letter was genuine, implying Lincoln was the author, and that he included it into his volume of the Collected Works of Lincoln. And, apparently, making no claims of authorship at that time.

Let us remove personalities from the issue.

Let's say there's an author Aye and an author Bee. We know (1) that Aye wrote certain works, and (2) that Bee wrote certain other works. But there are a number of works (3) that may have been written either by Aye or by Bee, we aren't sure whom, though a large percentage were probably by Bee.

The word "oxymoronic" occurs once, in a letter we shall call Dubium, among the works that may have been by Aye or by Bee, of which a large percentage were probably by Bee.

The word "oxymoronic" does not occur in any of the writings known to be by Aye, but "oxymoronic" occurs many times in the writings known to be by Bee.

Whom do we more reasonably conclude wrote Dubium, Aye or Bee?

And, is this, or is it not, a fair transposition of the question at hand?

(04-08-2013 04:47 PM)ELCore Wrote:  Let us remove personalities from the issue.

Let's say there's an author Aye and an author Bee. We know (1) that Aye wrote certain works, and (2) that Bee wrote certain other works. But there are a number of works (3) that may have been written either by Aye or by Bee, we aren't sure whom, though a large percentage were probably by Bee.

The word "oxymoronic" occurs once, in a letter we shall call Dubium, among the works that may have been by Aye or by Bee, of which a large percentage were probably by Bee.

The word "oxymoronic" does not occur in any of the writings known to be by Aye, but "oxymoronic" occurs many times in the writings known to be by Bee.

Whom do we more reasonably conclude wrote Dubium, Aye or Bee?

And, is this, or is it not, a fair transposition of the question at hand?

I conclude that since Bee uses the word "oxymoronic" a lot and Aye does not then most of the works in question were probably written by Aye since Bee did not follow his usual pattern of using the word "oxymoronic" in any of these works.

Since Bee did not write most, if any, of these works then there is less of a chance that he wrote "Dubium", and more of a chance that Aye used the word "oxymoronic" uniquely in this particular work in question.

But maybe Bee wants us to think he wrote "Dubium" and claims to not have only written that work but all the works in question.

To be more fair--

Prior to Bee claming he wrote "Dubium" and most of these works in question he put all these works into a volume he called the Collected Works of Aye. And also, Aye signed all these works as though he was the author, and a lot of people called Aye "Honest Aye" but nobody called Bee "Honest Bee".

You sure do reason differently than I do.

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(04-08-2013 01:05 PM)wsanto Wrote:  Can we also stipulate that we don't know the context of Hay's discussions with others who have subsequently reported that Hay wrote the letter? Similar to stipulating that we don't know the context of Robert Lincoln's letter claiming that Hay admitted to him that he had nothing to do with the Bixby letter.

We also do not know the reasons Hay might have had for including or excluding any of Lincoln's letters to his scrapbook. If he wrote the majority of Lincoln's correspondence, as he reported to Herndon, then he excluded quite a bit of his work from his scrapbook.

We do have Hay's statement that the Bixby letter was genuine, implying Lincoln was the author, and that he included it into his volume of the Collected Works of Lincoln. And, apparently, making no claims of authorship at that time.

As far as I can tell, several people reported that Hay claimed authorship of the Bixby letter. It would be nice to know more, but the discussions seem all to have been oral, not written, so we will never get more. As I've said before, all the sources seem to be independent of each other, and seem to have no reason to make it up.

After further consideration, I do agree that Hay's scrap books aren't good evidence at all. I think Burlingame jumped to a conclusion there.

But I think "genuine" implies no more than the work went out over Lincoln's signature; that is, with Lincoln's approbation. Which is also why it would be in the Complete Works (which, I believe, was compiled by Nicolay not Hay).

Family dynamic differs from family to family. So if some folks feel I propose a weak argument, I hear you. This post is based on how my family works.

I find it strange that Hay never told his own children that he was the author. None of his children ever made the claim that their dad wrote the Bixby letter. There is even a letter from his son in which he says his father never mentioned he was the real author.

Vicki and I have one daughter, Sarah. We know Sarah's accomplishments either through personal observation or having been told by her. Likewise, she knows her parents' accomplishments for the same reasons. That is the way our family works - we share with each other the things we are proud of.

If I had written a letter of which facsimiles were being sold all over the USA, I would tell my daughter that I was the real author of the letter. I think I would do this especially if the letter were being attributed to someone else. There is absolutely no way I can picture myself not telling her.

Thus, because of my own family dynamic, I feel Hay not telling his children is an argument in Lincoln's favor.

Good point Roger. Surely his family would know and press for his legacy.

But we will never know with 100% confidence who wrote the Bixby letter.

In my opinion, the presumption must be that Lincoln was the author given that he signed the letter as though he were the author.

The letter was obviously not routine White House correspondence and, for me, the text invokes a personal sentiment that would be awkward to sign and claim as your own if it was not.

Hopefully, I am not getting too technical here, but as far as I know, Hay never said anything about the letter until after the facsimiles appeared on the scene. So, when he told a few folks that he wrote the letter, did he merely mean he wrote it from Lincoln's dictation or copied it from Lincoln's draft? Or, on the other hand, did he mean he composed the letter totally by himself?

Am I mistaken, but even today doesn't the Secretary of Defense personally contact each family of a fallen soldier? Given Lincoln's deep concerns about the loss of life during the Civil War, it would seem natural to me that he would contact families in such unusual circumstances as this. Sorry, just female intuition checking in.

(04-09-2013 07:32 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Hopefully, I am not getting too technical here, but as far as I know, Hay never said anything about the letter until after the facsimiles appeared on the scene. So, when he told a few folks that he wrote the letter, did he merely mean he wrote it from Lincoln's dictation or copied it from Lincoln's draft? Or, on the other hand, did he mean he composed the letter totally by himself?

Robert Todd Lincoln is quoted as having written that his father "never dictated correspondence; he sometimes wrote a document and had his draft copied by either Nicolay or Hay...". But from the quotes in Burlingame's 1995 article, it is reported that Hay actually claimed authorship.

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I lean towards Hay's authorship, mostly because I don't think there would be any dispute at all unless Hay had, indeed, claimed authorship, and it is difficult for me to believe he lied about it. Moreover, arguments to the contrary are, to me, unconvincing.

It seems that the evidence, such as it is, is weighted according to each one's own experiences, ways of thinking, and intuitions and impressions. And we'll probably have to leave it at that.

Well, whoever wrote it, it's a classy letter. I think it clearly expresses the spirit and attitude of President Lincoln.
He created an environment around him where those sentiments existed not only in himself, but also reached out into those who worked closely with him. Hay may have penned the words, but it was Lincoln who's fundamental beliefs dictated the personality of the letter.

Gene,

I think that is an excellent way of summarizing everyone's positions on this. Thank you.

(04-09-2013 04:06 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Family dynamic differs from family to family. So if some folks feel I propose a weak argument, I hear you. This post is based on how my family works.

I find it strange that Hay never told his own children that he was the author. None of his children ever made the claim that their dad wrote the Bixby letter. There is even a letter from his son in which he says his father never mentioned he was the real author.

Vicki and I have one daughter, Sarah. We know Sarah's accomplishments either through personal observation or having been told by her. Likewise, she knows her parents' accomplishments for the same reasons. That is the way our family works - we share with each other the things we are proud of.

If I had written a letter of which facsimiles were being sold all over the USA, I would tell my daughter that I was the real author of the letter. I think I would do this especially if the letter were being attributed to someone else. There is absolutely no way I can picture myself not telling her.

Thus, because of my own family dynamic, I feel Hay not telling his children is an argument in Lincoln's favor.

In his posting yesterday, E L Core (Lane?) included a hyperlink to an article in the “American Heritage” on the Bixby letter authored by Jason Emerson (February/March 2006 – Volume 57, Issue 1) which contained the following two quotes:

“If Hay, a proud, even vain man, wrote the letter, why would he have told casual acquaintances but not members of his own family?”

“F. Lauriston Bullard, a Bixby-letter historian, makes a point that bears repeating: Hay never told his children he was the author. Both Bullard and another Lincoln scholar, William E. Barton, specifically asked them and they reiterated that their father had never claimed authorship (although they also said he never denied it).”

Hay asked the “casual acquaintances” to whom he made claim of the Bixby letter authorship not to make public his claim until after his own death. The controversy of authorship has raged for decades and continues to this day.

Is it possible, even probable, that Hay wanted to spare both himself and his family the torment of trying to prove that which cannot be proved? The original Bixby letter was destroyed. The White House, for whatever reason, did not possess either a copy of the letter or even a transcription of the letter. After Lincoln’s death, what would Hay or a member of his family say that would “substantially prove" to anyone that Hay was the author of the Bixby letters, except the detailed arguments made decades later by Professor Burlingame?

Who wants that kind of ridicule inflicted upon themselves or their family? If he told his family the “truth,” the only additional argument that they would be able to make is “my father would not lie to us.” [And, who remembers President Clinton wagging his finger at a national television audience and saying “I did not have sex with that Lewinski woman.” Well, he said that until that Lewinski woman said she had a blue dress with a stain in it.]

Either Hay or Lincoln authored the letter. For those who saw the movie, “Saving Private Ryan,” the answer is simple, because there was no controversy. Well, there was a controversy, but who cares about “Lincoln” history when you are making a Spielberg movie.

An update for any internet searchers who come upon this thread looking for more information about the letter --

The photograph on page 3 of this thread turned out not to be of Mrs. Bixby, but of a different woman of the same name. See my first post on this other thread for more details on the photo:

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...age-2.html

Hard to believe this thread is more than four years' old already.

(07-10-2017 06:00 PM)ELCore Wrote:  Hard to believe this thread is more than four years' old already.

I started looking over the Bixby Letter threads Bullard's book, and the letter's Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bixby_letter

to see if there is any information on Massachusetts Adjutant General Schouler's visit with Lincoln a few weeks prior to the letter being sent. I've been wondering if they discussed Mrs Bixby.

I'm also interested in learning as much as I can about Mrs Bixby's history and the military record of her sons.