Author Jean Baker writes that, prior to marrying Lincoln, Mary Todd told Douglas, "I can't consent to be your wife. I shall become Mrs. President, or I am the victim of false prophets, but it will not be as Mrs. Douglas."

Spooky how she said that. As it turned out, Douglas would not even live as long as Lincoln or Mary Todd.

(02-02-2013 10:32 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  . Overall, the debates provided Lincoln the exposure that would help propel him to the presidency-and at the same time doom Douglas for the same.

I agree with you that the debates were indispensable in electing Lincoln to the presidency in 1860 but would amiably dissent from the idea they doomed Douglas.

Does not this view overly rely on the idea that Lincoln cleverly trapped Douglas at Freeport by asking him-contrary to the wishes of his advisers according to the myth -whether or not the inhabitants of a United States territory could lawfully prohibit slavery in their midst in the aftermath of Dred Scott. The myth says Lincoln realized that if Douglas said "no" he would enrage Illinois voters and lose the 1858 Illinois senate election but the shrewd Lincoln believed that a "yes" answer would destroy Douglas' credit among Southerners and help elect a Republican to the White House in 1860.

Douglas had already given his "yes" answer well before he repeated at Freeport what is known as the "Freeport Doctrine"-slavery could not exist anywhere unless it was protected by local law regardless of Dred Scott. The Dred Scott decision never explicitly ruled on the question of whether or not a territory could prohibit slavery. Adherents of Douglas and his Freeport doctrine were the only Americans who simultaneously supported the Dred Scott decision but believed territories could prohibit slavery well before the state making process.

Douglas had further ruined his appeal to Southerners in the winter of 1858 by leading the revolt of many Northern Democrats against the Buchanan Administration's unsuccessful efforts to make Kansas a slave state.

Douglas' efforts so impressed several Eastern Republicans that they tried to convince Illinois Republicans to support Douglas for re-election which provoked howls of outrage from Lincoln and Illinois Republicans who had spent their lives being defeated by Douglas and the Illinois democracy.
Tom

Thomas: maybe "doomed" was too strong of a word. Historians generally agree that Douglas had pretty much nothing to gain by engaging in debates with Lincoln -and that Lincoln stood to gain much (which he did). It was Lincoln's view, from what I understand, that Dred Scott made arguments about the slavery question in the territories somewhat moot-because slaves could be taken anywhere by their masters (as "property")-and thus bring "slavery" there.

I just wanted to "recommend" what I think is one of the best (if not THE best) book on the debates--Allen C. Guelzo's LINCOLN AND DOUGLAS. Way back when my parents gave me a book for Christmas that I still have. It was published by the LOC and was a copy of Lincoln's "scrapbook" of the debates as recorded in the newspapers, clipped out by Lincoln, pasted in the scrapbook, with Lincoln's handwritten annotations. It is a large folio size book, entitled THE ILLINOIS POLITICAL CAMPAIGN OF 1858. Because of Lincoln's annotations, it is an interesting source.

Thanks Joe, sounds indispensable.

If we were to give all Americans one question to answer - Who won the 1858 Illinois race for Senate, Abraham Lincoln or Stephen A. Douglas - I wonder what percentage would get it right. And, for extra credit, ask whether Senators were elected by the people or the state legislatures.

Roger: bet they would not know at all. Well, the majority of folks, anyway.

I have not seen every Lincoln movie but the only one I remember that depicted the Lincoln-Douglas debates was "Abe Lincoln in Illinois" which gave a very accurate portrayal of the roughhouse political culture of 1858 Illinois but gave the false impression that Douglas fully championed current Southern opinion.

Charles Middleton played Lincoln's father in this film. He is best known for playing the delightful villain "Ming the Merciless" in the "Flash Gordon" serials. I believe that many Southerners during the Civil War would have seconded the motion that Lincoln surely was the son of Ming the Merciless and was born on the planet Mongo.
Tom

Tom, you are bringing back childhood memories. I liked Jean Rogers. I also liked the Clay Men music.

(02-04-2013 07:31 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Tom, you are bringing back childhood memories. I liked Jean Rogers. I also liked the Clay Men music.

Even more, Roger, I liked Lizst's Les Preludes as the theme music during action scenes.

Joe

(02-03-2013 04:14 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  If we were to give all Americans one question to answer - Who won the 1858 Illinois race for Senate, Abraham Lincoln or Stephen A. Douglas - I wonder what percentage would get it right. And, for extra credit, ask whether Senators were elected by the people or the state legislatures.

Roger, It is sad to say, but I would guess that most of the public has never even heard of Stephen Douglas. Speaking about Douglas, I recommend a great book to the readers of this forum that I read a number of years ago. It is a biography of Douglas by H.M. Flint. It also contains a number of his debates on the Senate floor regarding the Kansas/Nebraska question. This is really interesting, because there are some of the big heavy hitters of the time involved in the discussion (Seward, Chase, Sumner and others)
The copy of the book I own is probably 100 years old so I am sure that it is out of print, but it might be available on Google books.

Craig

Craig: You're right-most people today would not know who Douglas was. Because of his views on race-many would not consider him a hero. I remember standing by his statue in Springfield and considering the irony of the fact of the placement of the statue of Martin Luther King Jr. not too far from there.

From what I remember reading, Douglas did not look upon slavery as a moral issue.

(02-05-2013 09:46 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Craig: You're right-most people today would not know who Douglas was. Because of his views on race-many would not consider him a hero. I remember standing by his statue in Springfield and considering the irony of the fact of the placement of the statue of Martin Luther King Jr. not too far from there.

Bill, you might be right there. Douglas' view of popular soveriegnty regarding the slavery question does not hold him on ahigh pedestal in todays world.

Craig