Rathbone Uncovered

[Eva Elisabeth]

(06-17-2013 10:11 AM)emma1231 Wrote:  Oh, well, if you think so. I have no expertise, and must rely on others' research. Seems an awfully expensive thing to do, too. Let us know if you ever come up with any records on this matter!
A sad closing chapter on an already sad and tragic story. You can't make up stuff like this! Someone ought to make a movie about Henry and Clara.

Emma,

first of all, it is not and never was my intention to convince you or anybody else of anything. I did this all for myself, my curiousity and my desire to find out as much as possible. Sorry, if you think I should have to “ever come up with any records on this matter” my intention is misunderstood. (Although I think I did come up with some records.) I shared with you what I did, the process, the outcome, the documents I was able to get, the statements of officials, archivists and others involved in my research, my thoughts and my conclusions which were at each certain point in time based upon what I had come to know until then, but it is up to you to draw your own conclusions. Also I never said “so the couple is still there” but “so the couple SHOULD still be there” (see post#31 on the thread “Major Rathbone’s accomodation in Hannover”.) This is IMO uttermost likely, but the only true, incontestable evidence despite all records and documents would be to open the grave and dig it up.

I attach the cemetery administration’s pdf information leaflet describing their modus operandi.
  Einebnung_von_Grabstellen.pdf (Size: 49.58 KB / Downloads: 5)
One decisive passage is the following:

Einebnung von Wahl- und
Reihengräbern
Traditionell gelten in Deutschland für Grabstätten
begrenzte Nutzungszeiten. Danach werden solche
Grabstätten in der Regel eingeebnet, um wieder Platz
für neue Bestattungen zu schaffen. Bei einer
Einebnung werden nur die an der Oberfläche
befindlichen Zeichen eines Grabes beseitigt, also das
Grabbeet und ggf. das Grabmal…
Erst nach Ablauf der Ruhezeiten, wenn also bei einer
Erdbeisetzung alles wieder zu Erde geworden ist, darf
ein Grab erneut zur Wiederbelegung genutzt werden.

The English translation of this passage is:

Leveling of gravesites (selected gravesites and linear form)
In Germany, gravesites traditionally apply to limited usage rights. Afterwards, the gravesites will normally be leveled to make way for further burials. In doing so just the superficial marks of the gravesite will be disposed of, thus the planting and the gravestone...
Only after the rest period [note: 40 years in former times, 20 years nowadays] expired, thus if after an inhumation everything will have turned to dust again, a gravesite may be reused.

On the leaflet are also the addresses and phone numbers of the cemetery and the administration, the email address is the following:
67.40@Hannover-Stadt.de
If you doubt the admin.’s statement to me that the remains remained in the gravesite and wish to clarify yourself you may contact and confront the administration with your doubts.

The Wikipedia article about Henry Rathbone even claims that the couple was cremated in 1952. There never was nor is a crematory at Engesohde cemetery, there has always (since 1924) just been one crematory in Hannover at another cemetery. Before 1924 cremation was prohibited by law and even afterwards fiercely critizised by both, Lutherian and Catholic church. (In 1960, the percentage of cremations in the FRG was 10,4%.)

Emma,
you are free to believe whatever you like. Sorry then for bothering you with all this. First I didn't even want to post about all this, but once started I tried hard and spent a lot of time on reporting as conscientiously as possible and sending and translating documents. I truly accept your opinion, but your wording made me a bit sad. Honestly it hurt.

[Jim Garrett]

This is such a great and interesting post. In searching for George Atzerodt with the great Lincoln Assassination sleuth Dave Taylor. He found that the most probable final resting place for George is under another grave in Glenwood Cemetery in Washington.

Without the efforts of people like Eva, Rich Smyth, Dave Taylor, and many others, we would still not know the final resting places of many, we would only think we know. The great aspect of all that study the Lincoln Assassination is that we all approach from slightly different angles. Some are true researchers, some biographers, some are readers, some are re-tellers and some are sleuths. Many of us share multiple qualities (Betty is a biographer, researcher, and sleuth). This mix makes it all the more interesting because not a single one of us can do it all.

[Seward]

Eva,

You have done us all a great service and I applaud you for your efforts.

Regards,
Seward R. Osborne

[brtmchl]

Thank you Eva,
This is amazing! Thank you for sharing your findings.

[DKEast]

(06-07-2013 07:10 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Laurie: The Wild Irish Rose wine will probably not go well with good Maryland BBQ. It's usually consumed with food retrieved from large green containers found behind convenience stores. A bench is a wonderful idea. It will be your own little slice of a classic Victorian "park".

Jim, of all things you mention Wild Irish Rose! When I was at Dealey Plaza in January 2011 in downtown Dallas I took a photo from the structure next to the grassy knoll and some overnight guest had left a finished Wild Irish Rose on one of the square porthole shelves there. I took a photo of it with the Texas School Book Depository Building in the background - the connection being of course JFK's heritage.

[Hess1865]

(04-18-2015 08:45 AM)DKEast Wrote:  

(06-07-2013 07:10 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Laurie: The Wild Irish Rose wine will probably not go well with good Maryland BBQ. It's usually consumed with food retrieved from large green containers found behind convenience stores. A bench is a wonderful idea. It will be your own little slice of a classic Victorian "park".

Jim, of all things you mention Wild Irish Rose! When I was at Dealey Plaza in January 2011 in downtown Dallas I took a photo from the structure next to the grassy knoll and some overnight guest had left a finished Wild Irish Rose on one of the square porthole shelves there. I took a photo of it with the Texas School Book Depository Building in the background - the connection being of course JFK's heritage.

Maybe Joe Kennedy Sr. imported Wild Irish Rose back in his bootlegging days!

[DKEast]

Didn't think of that but it would be most ironic!!

[IrishJim011]

(06-06-2013 12:31 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  Maybe you or Jim can tell me why she is buried at the crossroads. I remembered from "Supernatural" that that's where the brothers went to meet the demons so I looked it up on Wikipedia.

"Burial at cross-roads

"Historically, burial at cross-roads was the method of disposing of executed criminals and persons who have committed suicide. Cross-roads form a crude cross shape and this may have given rise to the belief that these spots were selected as the next best burying-places to consecrated ground. Another possible explanation is that the ancient Teutonic (Germanic) ethnic groups often built their altars at the cross-roads, and since human sacrifices, especially of criminals, formed part of the ritual, these spots came to be regarded as execution grounds. Hence after the introduction of Christianity, criminals and suicides were buried at the cross-roads during the night, in order to assimilate as far as possible their funeral to that of the pagans.[citation needed] An example of a cross-road execution-ground was the famous Tyburn in London, which stood on the spot where the Roman road to Edgware and beyond met the Roman road heading west out of London."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial

Though this is post is now many years old, I can add a bit of information here. Michael Coleman, nephew of Margaret Coleman & buried there with his parents & aunt, was my great uncle (husband of my grandfather's sister). He died by suicide in 1932, distraught over investment losses & ill health. Though it would be unusual for a crossroad burial in modern times due to suicide, this could be the reason here.

[AussieMick]

Thomas Hardy short story on same subject
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Grave...st_(Hardy)

[Steve Whitlock]

(06-16-2013 10:21 PM)chrishunter Wrote:  I've been researching the Rathbone family for about 10 years. There are a couple of descendants living in New York City. I haven't contacted any of them yet and I'm not sure if they are aware of this discovery yet.

(06-06-2013 06:16 AM)Hess1865 Wrote:  I wonder if any of Rathbone's descendants (if there are any still alive) knew the truth about the burial situation before Eva found this??

When you mention NYC descendants, are they from Henry Reed Rathbone, or other Rathbone lines? I did an mtdna project for Henry Reed Rathbone's maternal line and it appeared to me that there were no living descendants, but I was concentrating on mtdna. I would be interested in knowing if I missed any living descendants. We had to look to relatives to get 2 mtdna donors for the project.

That same mtdna project was used to verify that a supposed Lincoln artifact with President Lincoln's blood from his assassination was in actuality from Henry Reed Rathbone during his struggle with John Wilkes Booth which resulted in Henry's blood being spattered on Mary Lincoln's chair. I imagine any blood relics from the theater, not directly from Lincoln's person or bed across the street, will be Major Rathbone's. It seems Mr Lincoln didn't bleed that much at the theater, except into his clothing and what they used to carry him across the street.

[IrishJim011]

(09-18-2020 08:47 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  Thomas Hardy short story on same subject
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Grave...st_(Hardy)

What an interesting short story! Thank you for sharing that.

[Linda Anderson]

(09-19-2020 02:14 PM)IrishJim011 Wrote:  

(09-18-2020 08:47 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  Thomas Hardy short story on same subject
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Grave...st_(Hardy)

What an interesting short story! Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you for the story, AussieMick. Sad story with a sad ending.

As to the burial of Michael Coleman at the crossroads in Mount Olivet Cemetery, I remembered that the crossroads were actually in a Catholic cemetery. At one time the Catholic Church did not allow suicides to be buried in Church land. I’m glad that Michael was buried with his parents, Mary and James Coleman, and his Aunt Margaret (James’s sister who was Seward’s servant) but I wonder how that happened. Perhaps it was because his parents had at least two children who went into religious orders, Rev. James Coleman who died in 1899 and Sister Mary Nativity who died soon after Michael on July 8, 1932. Maybe the Church took into account his state of mind. At any rate, the Church has thankfully changed its thinking on this matter.