Mosby

[Laurie Verge]

JOhn - Do we have proof of Mason's assignment re: the kidnapping?

[scldrgnfly]

Man!!! I LOVE this fest!! You all are so good! I'd read whatever Laurie wrote! That goes for Betty and the rest of you, too!

[John Stanton]

To 6 star - "Legendary Laura" -Post #16. (I like to twist Lioness' tails, too.) (It's like the tricks that we pulled on our Teachers.) I wish I could answer you with one line, like your question, but I can't. I do not recall where (or if) Tidwell specifically describes, in one place, the "Security Force" that was organized to protect the "Secret Line". On page 392 of C. R. he says "... the 15th VA Cav... had contributed a substantial number of men to the "Security Force". This info is not indexed. I mentioned another member of the 15th being in King George, and actually helping Booth, in that article that you put in the Courier about Booth at Cleydael - John L. Crismomd. Also shown therein, was a suggested working relationship between Mason and Crismond. From all this, I concluded that Mason was not "with" Mosby, but was reacting to orders given to the "Security Force", to notify Mosby when Booth arrived. The Rappahannock River was being watched closely, from Port Royal to Fredericksburg, because no one knew where Booth would cross. Interestingly, this Security Force continued to operate on into May '65, and the group surrendered in May at the King George Courthouse.
I am searching for that roster. It may have been a large group, because it took two days to complete.
Do you want cites for the presence of Mason "on the Ferry Boat with Booth"?

[Laurie Verge]

I do know that Mason was on the ferry boat from Port Conway to Port Royal. And, I guess I asked a sort of stupid question about documentation because I doubt that there were very many paper trails left by Mosby or any of the security force. Black ops are funny (and frustrating) that way.

[Gene C]

I think there may be a transcribed copy of a ticket stub in the Potter Papers. .

[richard petersen]

(05-10-2013 08:31 AM)Gene C Wrote:  I think there may be a transcribed copy of a ticket stub in the Potter Papers. .

After reading that Laurie said after the first 10 chapters CR was a piece of cake, I am starting over at chapter 11. I'm a slow reader and learner.
Laurie , at sometime could you explain the details and reasoning of "Paroled at Ashland" Was this true.? Thanks in advance.

[BettyO]

OK - I'm pulling out my copy of CR again as well!

[Laurie Verge]

I'm right behind you, Betty. It's been years since I plowed through the book. Wild Bill, I bet you can tackle Mr. Petersen's question.

[BettyO]

Laurie -

Maybe we should do a "reading club" sort of deal and we all take another stab at CR!

[John Stanton]

(05-10-2013 12:40 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  I'm right behind you, Betty. It's been years since I plowed through the book. Wild Bill, I bet you can tackle Mr. Petersen's question.

"acupla" items.
1. I do not understand this question about Ashland. May I ask what it is about?
2. I must be wierd, but I use "C. R." daily. My copy, signed by Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy, is almost ready for retirement. If I may brag, and I will, my copy was free, 'cuz, I contributed to its preparation, and even now I converse with Gaddy weekly. If you are having problems, maybe I can help (with the help of Gaddy.)
3. Betty O. Would you look in FOLD 3, to see if they list a Surrender of Troops at King George Court House on May 1 and 2 of 1865? PLEZZ! I know that it happened, and I think they would be the remenents of the "Guards" on the Secret Line. Pretty Plezz!

[scldrgnfly]

In "The Mosby Myth: a Confederate Hero in Life and Legend (by Paul Ashdown and Edward Caudill)," it says that after Mosby disbanded his troops on April 21, he rode with 6 MEN towards Richmond hoping to join up with Johnston, but then found he had already surrendered. It says he, intentionally, used the term "disbanded" rather than "surrendered" when he spoke to his men. He wasn't "paroled" till June 17th at Lynchburg, so it looks like he would have had enough men to do whatever he wished, and the rest of his force, could, technically be called upon for service.

Interestingly, after reading quite a bit of his memoirs and reading about his work for the State Department, I don't see that he ever mentioned any involvement in the explosives plot nor the Lincoln kidnapping plot. That said, he was involved in a couple of other kidnapping plots, so he would have been up to the operation. However, since he worked for Frederick Seward in the State Department not too long after the end of the War and, at the time of the assassination, had expressed sadness at Lincoln's murder, I doubt he would have discussed the matter with anyone.

Working in government and his friend, Ulysses S. Grant were very important to him. Interesting how Ulysses S. Grant died the day after he sent the letter to Mosby notifying him that he had gotten Leland Stanford to offer him a job with the Southern Pacific Railroad.

The feeling I got about his personality is he didn't really want to dwell on operations and things in the past that had very unfortunate outcomes. He really loved talking about the good 'ol boy camaraderie.

One VERY POSITIVE aspect of his very diplomatic handling of this specific plot is, unlike others, he lived a very long life, dying in 1916--even after being kicked in the head by a horse and being hit by a bicyclist and left by the side of the road, suffering a fractured skull and losing an eye.

Who is Enoch Mason and how old was he when he died?

Are the Potter Papers reputable? Neff-Guttridge?

Have any of Mosby's "men" written/published memoirs about the Lincoln kidnapping plot (how long did they live after they were written/published, if they did)? Are there any official contemporary letters or telegrams issuing those orders, not including the telegram that notes Stanton's "suspicions?"

[BettyO]

Quote:Are the Potter Papers reputable? Neff-Guttridge?

Have any of Mosby's "men" written/published memoirs about the Lincoln kidnapping plot (how long did they live after they were written/published, if they did)? Are there any official contemporary letters or telegrams issuing those orders, not including the telegram that notes Stanton's "suspicions?"

The Potter Papers i.e. Neff-Guttridge, are suspect. I saw some of the Potter papers years ago when Mr. James O. Hall had copies of them. He showed them to me and let me go over them as well. Mr. Hall pointed out that the verbiage was definitely, in a lot of places, 20th Century NOT Victorian. Words jumped out at one, i.e. in one sentence Powell was described as "dating" Mary Branson. The word "date" is more or less 20th Century. The correct 19th Century word would have been "courting." This in itself was very suspect....

There is the letter which is from General William H. Payne to General Bradley C. Johnson remarking on Mosby's handpicking five men for a "venture into Maryland with Powell being one of the five chosen." Also, Lt. W. Ben Palmer as well as Powell's Captain, Robert Walker, in Company B also discussed Powell's involvement in the plot.

Mosby was also involved in an early silent film project based somewhat loosely on his life which was filmed about 1913 in which he himself appeared.

---

Quote:Betty O. Would you look in FOLD 3, to see if they list a Surrender of Troops at King George Court House on May 1 and 2 of 1865? PLEZZ! I know that it happened, and I think they would be the remnants of the "Guards" on the Secret Line. Pretty Plezz!

John -

I can look in Fold3 in the free section - but I don't have a subscription to look further.... I'll check!

[L Verge]

As in the case of the "missing pages" of Booth's diary that were supposedly in the hands of Joseph Lynch nearly forty years ago, the Potter Papers have been presented to historians for verification in typed transcript only. To my knowledge, none of Neff's and Guttridge's "findings" have been shown in original, handwritten copies. That waves a red flag to experts right away. Then, the experts look for things such as Betty mentioned above that place the papers out of context for their time in history.

Len Guttridge was a very nice man with whom I had quite a few conversations over the years. His specialty was naval history, and I was never quite sure how he became involved with Ray Neff and the Lincoln assassination theories. In one of the last conversations I had with him before his death, I got the distinct feeling that he didn't know why he got involved in Neff's doings either. By that time, it was too late.

[RJNorton]

(05-12-2013 06:47 PM)BettyO Wrote:  The Potter Papers i.e. Neff-Guttridge, are suspect. I saw some of the Potter papers years ago when Mr. James O. Hall had copies of them. He showed them to me and let me go over them as well. Mr. Hall pointed out that the verbiage was definitely, in a lot of places, 20th Century NOT Victorian. Words jumped out at one, i.e. in one sentence Powell was described as "dating" Mary Branson. The word "date" is more or less 20th Century. The correct 19th Century word would have been "courting." This in itself was very suspect....

I am curious about Andrew Potter as I know some highly respected assassination experts feel he never existed. Basically I know nothing about Potter or his papers. There is an example of a letter Potter allegedly wrote here.

My question is why would someone go to such an extensive effort to "create" things like this? Is there "big money" to be made through such an extensive endeavor? Or is it done more for the sensationalism or thrill of fooling others into thinking these are real documents?

[BettyO]

The letter posted is very much like Laurie said - the "Potter papers" were not presented in any other format other than typewritten transcripts - at least what I and Mr. Hall saw....

I think that these things are possibly created, as you say, Roger twofold. They possibly think that "Big Bucks" may be involved in the discovery of such "documents" and/or that it will bring fame to themselves as well as possibly the gratification and sensationalism of fooling the public....who knows? I can't imagine what gratification anyone would get out of creating fakes....