Maggie Thatcher and Abraham Lincoln

[ReignetteC]

From Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan: A New Political Relationship:

Demonstrating her admiration for American economic culture, Margaret Thatcher quoted Abraham Lincoln:

“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could, and should, do for themselves.”

(Note to the experts: Is the above quotation correctly attributed to Mr. Lincoln?)


And I'd like to add my favorite quotation from the Iron Lady:

On politics: “It used to be about trying to do something. Now it’s about trying to be someone.”

RIP Baroness Thatcher

[RJNorton]

(04-08-2013 09:36 AM)ReignetteC Wrote:  RIP Baroness Thatcher

I second you, Reignette!

(Although the quotes are often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, this is incorrect. The true story is here.)

[ReignetteC]

Thanks for the correction, Roger. I wondered about it, too. But at least one thing is certain: The Iron Lady did indeed admire our 16th president. So let's give her a pass about the quotation.

[LincolnMan]

She must have borrowed the misquote from Reagan-who also incorrectly attributed it to Lincoln in a speech he gave at one of the Republican National Conventions.

[Liz Rosenthal]

The quotation that Thatcher and Reagan mistakenly attributed to Lincoln is still being attributed to Lincoln by those who believe that government intervention in the economy is a bad thing. I'm talking about the modern-day Republican Party and its allies. I can see why Thatcher and Reagan would have liked the quote. It expresses a laissez-faire view of government's relationship to the economy and the individual well-being of a nation's citizens. Reagan succeeded in completely changing the discourse with regard to government's role, basically blaming it for all the nation's ills. Ever since, Democrats have been on the defensive regarding the good that government can do; even President Obama hasn't been able to, or perhaps hasn't wanted to, totally reverse course (witness: the lack of a public option in the health care law, a stimulous plan dominated by tax cuts, feeble re-regulation of Wall Street). I suppose that Thatcher had a similar affect on British political discourse. And attributing the quote to Lincoln seems to lend it a meritoriousness it wouldn't otherwise have, given that he is almost universally regarded as American's greatest president, as well as its most principled, and the perfect exemplar of America's ability to produce great individuals who came from nothing.

The problem with linking Lincoln (no rhyme intended ) to this sort of statement is that very little about Lincoln's record could be explained by pointing to it as his working philosophy. He was a leader of the Whig Party prior to the establishment of the Republican Party. The Whigs, unlike the then-Democrats, were in favor of government support of what today would be called public works (canals, bridges, railroads), which were essential to economic development. The Whigs supported a national bank and a state bank. They supported public schools. They supported high tariffs to favor domestic products.

When the Republican Party was formed, while it did attract many disaffected, anti-slavery Democrats, it was dominated by former Whigs, and formed for one purpose only - to arrest the spread of slavery to the territories. It was not formed to shrink the size of government, or to keep government out of the economy. As America's first Republican President, Lincoln expanded the role of government in a wide range of areas: railroads, homesteading, national currency, taxation, agriculture, higher education. He signed into law a Freedmen's Bureau to assist newly-freed slaves in entering society unshackled. While Lincoln's domestic policies couldn't be equated to the New Deal, they were far from the sort of economic laissez-faire belief system espoused by Thatcher and Reagan.

[Gene C]

I wanted to write a sarcastic political statement but "the better angels of my nature" , told me not to.

So to help keep current politics off this site where they don't really belong,
please insert your own personal comment here ____________ (that's all the room you get)

Just kidding

[Liz Rosenthal]

It's kind of hard to keep away from politics when we're discussing a political declaration made by Thatcher and Reagan masquerading as a nod to Abraham Lincoln.

[Gene C]

Not if you try.

Besides Liz, your last post doesn't count. You exceeded your space.
We can only consider "It's kind of"

Does it count if I believe Lincoln would have said it, if he'd thought of it?

(you know I'm just picking and teasing you)

[Jim Page]

Remember what Mark Twain wrote in his hilarious book, Christian Science:
. . . we all know that in all matters of mere opinion that [every] man is insane--just as insane as we are . . . we know exactly where to put our finger upon his insanity: it is where his opinion differs from ours . . . All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it. None but the Republicans. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats can perceive it. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.

--Jim

---

This is far from being reliable, considering who is posting it, but I read several years ago that Margaret Thatcher, to relax, played acoustic guitar, and was quoted as saying something along the lines of "There are some things more important in life than playing guitar, but not too many."

I tried Googling this just now but had no luck.

--Jim

[Liz Rosenthal]

(04-08-2013 06:04 PM)Gene C Wrote:  Not if you try.

Besides Liz, your last post doesn't count. You exceeded your space.
We can only consider "It's kind of"

Does it count if I believe Lincoln would have said it, if he'd thought of it?

(you know I'm just picking and teasing you)

Gene, you are a funny guy. And you know how to put out a fire.

[Gene C]

(04-08-2013 07:18 PM)Jim Page Wrote:  This is far from being reliable, considering who is posting it, but I read several years ago that Margaret Thatcher, to relax, played acoustic guitar, and was quoted as saying something along the lines of "There are some things more important in life than playing guitar, but not too many."

I tried Googling this just now but had no luck.

--Jim

I did some checking Jim, I think it was Abe Lincoln who erroneously attributed that quote to Margret Thatcher.
(I think it can originally be traced to Edwin Stanton, who unknown to many, was one of forerunners to ZZ Top)
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/vi...spart=att'

[My Name Is Kate]

If Lincoln lived today and saw some of the things going on in this country and in this world, I think he would be absolutely speechless, and no one would have to worry about any more quotes issuing from him.

[Laurie Verge]

I agree with you completely, Kate. We have an expert on Lincoln quotes on this forum, I believe. El Core, aren't there some quotes from Lincoln about the necessity of having mankind develop their own skills and not depend on a welfare state?

[J. Beckert]

Just like Lincoln himself did. A man with less than one year of formal education elevated himself by himself. In one of his letters regarding a step brother, he made mention of working to help yourself. That's a work ethic that's going by the wayside.

[Liz Rosenthal]

(04-09-2013 08:20 AM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  I agree with you completely, Kate. We have an expert on Lincoln quotes on this forum, I believe. El Core, aren't there some quotes from Lincoln about the necessity of having mankind develop their own skills and not depend on a welfare state?

There was no such thing as a "welfare state" in Lincoln's day, in name or in practice, so Lincoln wouldn't have had a reason to refer to it. While I'm not an expert, I'm pretty well-read in the Lincoln Canon, as I'm sure a lot of people are on this Symposium. The closest expression I can think of to what you're talking about, Laurie, is Lincoln's statement, on more than one occasion, in the context of opposing slavery, that artificial restraints should be lifted from all shoulders; everyone had the "right to rise."

On the other hand, many of Lincoln's Democratic opponents (in print and in elected office), who opposed emancipation and/or the establishment of the Freedmen's Bureau, and perhaps such notions as giving freed slaves "40 acres and a mule," published cartoons and broadsides and argued publicly that such coddling, if you will, would lead to a society of lazy black people. One of the arguments *for* slavery was that black people were naturally lazy and needed direction in order to be productive; therefore, slavery was the best option for black people living in American society. Tragically, this train of thought helped defeat postwar Reconstruction and lasted well into the 20th century by serving, in a twisted way, to justify the "Jim Crow" South. It was transformed into an argument against LBJ's Great Society programs and those New Deal programs that survived the 30s, and generally informed subsequent arguments of conservatives opposing such programs (think of Ronald Reagan's derisive reference to "welfare queens").

I know that a lot of people would like to think of Abraham Lincoln as someone more in line with Ronald Reagan's philosophy than a leader of more liberal bent, but his actions belie such a conclusion and do not appear to be supported by his writings and speeches.

With regard to Lincoln's letter(s) to his step-brother John D. Johnston, it's true that he urged Johnston to help himself by working. The context was that Johnston was looking for yet another hand-out from his more well-to-do step-brother to finance another scheme that would come to nothing. Lincoln was very frustrated by Johnston's lack of interest in making a living. To me, such correspondence isn't evidence of an economic laissez-faire ideology on Lincoln's part, but is simply evidence of a private family difficulty.