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Mary's Reputation
06-02-2013, 11:14 PM
Post: #166
RE: Mary's Reputation
Ah, let me see-it's the one where she is seated and has the white flowers in her bonnet.

Bill Nash
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06-02-2013, 11:36 PM
Post: #167
RE: Mary's Reputation
(06-02-2013 11:14 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Ah, let me see-it's the one where she is seated and has the white flowers in her bonnet.

While I can not get 'in Mary's head' and know exactly why she had this photo taken, there are many reasons why she should have had one taken. First, let's remember that we do not know for certain Mary is wearing mourning - but there are clues in this dress that she was. In 1862 - 1863, day dresses became plainer in style. One fashion magazine stated that “The morning dress is more than ever simple and in the street a lady ought to appear, as it were,
incognito."
Mary's dress follows this style. She appears not as a First Lady, but as an everyday woman.
Following the fashionable style for '62-'63, it is probable that Mary is wearing mourning and her dress is black. The veil on the bonnet was worn to keep the dust out of her face. Other clues are the white spray of flowers - indicate mourning for a child. Her bonnet ribbons are trimmed in white; the collar is white; the undersleeves are white, all soften the mourning and can be indicators of mourning a child.

Another fashionable style during these years was to have large, Greek key designs, or other large trims at the bottom of the skirt. Mary's skirt is plain - again indicating mourning.

So why a photo? Perhaps this was her way of letting the public know that she was beginning to receive guests again. Entertainments would return to the White House, and the social calendar would resume.

You will also find this photo on card stock dated 1865, 1866, and perhaps even later. This is because the photographer owned the negative and reprinted them whenever his supply ran out. CDV's were collected in the same manner that baseball cards are collected now.
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06-03-2013, 12:06 AM
Post: #168
RE: Mary's Reputation
Sorry, please, what are CDVs?
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06-03-2013, 05:23 AM
Post: #169
RE: Mary's Reputation
Good morning, Eva. Please go here.
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06-03-2013, 05:51 AM
Post: #170
RE: Mary's Reputation
Wow Donna, you took something I thought would be boring, and made it interesting.

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
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06-03-2013, 12:54 PM
Post: #171
RE: Mary's Reputation
Great response to my inquiry! Thank you.

Bill Nash
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06-03-2013, 02:21 PM
Post: #172
RE: Mary's Reputation
Donna, I have a copy of Lloyd Ostendorf's The Photographs of Mary Todd Lincoln. Do you know if there have been any "new discoveries" since that was published?
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06-03-2013, 04:13 PM
Post: #173
RE: Mary's Reputation
(06-03-2013 02:21 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Donna, I have a copy of Lloyd Ostendorf's The Photographs of Mary Todd Lincoln. Do you know if there have been any "new discoveries" since that was published?

No new photographs - just changes in several dates. Plus, many historians are now saying that is not really Mary in the photo with the Native Americans.
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06-03-2013, 04:29 PM
Post: #174
RE: Mary's Reputation
Very interesting, Donna. Here's the photo referred to. Lloyd Ostendorf identifies Mary as standing in the back row far right. (He also identifies John Nicolay standing in the center behind the ladies.) I'll leave it to folks with younger eyes than me to decide if it's Mary.
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06-03-2013, 05:37 PM
Post: #175
RE: Mary's Reputation
What's the date of the photo, Roger? I think, to my eyes anyway, that could be a thinner Mary than we're used to seeing. Definitely Nicolay and maybe Ninian Edwards, second from the left?

"There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg"
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06-03-2013, 06:21 PM
Post: #176
RE: Mary's Reputation
Joe, Lloyd Ostendorf has an 1862 date for that photo, and it bears the Mathew Brady imprint from 1862. He says it was taken in the White House conservatory and was once the property of Nicolay. There is no mention of Ninian Edwards.
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06-03-2013, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 07:15 PM by L Verge.)
Post: #177
RE: Mary's Reputation
When did the Indian chieftains visit D.C. and Lincoln?

Here's a link to the Indians' visit to the White House on March 27, 1863 - not 1862:

http://abrahamlincolnandthecivilwar.word...t-lincoln/

According to this it was taken in the White House Conservatory and was done in groups. Notice the reference to B.B. French looking over Kate Chase's shoulder. If there was more than one group, my bet is that Mrs. Lincoln would not have been in the same photo with Kate!

Anybody see Kate in this photo?
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06-03-2013, 07:53 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 08:04 PM by Gene C.)
Post: #178
RE: Mary's Reputation
(06-03-2013 06:56 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Anybody see Kate in this photo?

Tad gave her a quick shove into the shrubbery just as they took the picture Angel
(That's why they all have a straight face, they're trying not to laugh. And that's the real rason Mary dotted on the little fellow)
Isn't that him in the middle behind the indians?

So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in?
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06-03-2013, 10:21 PM
Post: #179
RE: Mary's Reputation
This is one of the photos which now is given a different date from that assigned by Ostendorf. There is no way to dispute the date of the Natiive American chiefs visit.
I do not think that Ninian Edwards was in Washington in 1863 - but I am not sure.

If the photo is indeed Mary, the bonnet strings are the same (or very similar) to the bonnet strings she wore in the CDV Bill mentioned. This is another reason to date the photo of her seated as late 1862 or early 1863. Mary was coming out of her one year mourning period for Willie.
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06-03-2013, 10:57 PM
Post: #180
RE: Mary's Reputation
It doesn't look like Mary to me. What do you all think?

Bill Nash
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