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BettyO · (This post was last modified: 02-14-2013 02:13 PM by BettyO.)

I know exactly what you mean, Laurie. Richmond is the very same - some alleys are still cobblestone and I mean COBBLESTONE! Cobblestone was usually from an earlier era (Federal period through the Antebellum period.) That which was placed in the 1870s - 1900s was usually Belgian block. A lot of streets here in Richmond are actually still Belgian Block - NOT cobblestone. Cobblestone consists of rounded stones like bread rolls or river rock - smooth in texture and difficult to walk over. What is currently in Shockoe Slip here in Richmond is NOT cobblestone, but Belgian block, as is our famous Monument Avenue. Folk call it cobblestone - heck, the engineers here at work call it cobblestone and I'm forever correcting them! There are only two alleys here in Richmond that were actually cobblestone - 12th Street Alley between 11th and what was once 13th Street from Main Street to Cary Street and one other lower down near Main Street. Cobblestone is more predominant in Europe rather than here in the US.

Richmond alleys had names as well - Pink Alley, Tulip Alley, Jessamine Alley, etc. Petersburg and Baltimore had the very same. Most African Americans lived in the alleys here in Richmond, Petersburg as well as Baltimore.

Jim Page · 02-14-2013, 02:13 PM

Hey, Betty--

I recall walking with my wife on those rounded cobblestones in Savannah, and they were uncomfortable to walk on, in my opinion.

I remember commenting to Patty about that.

--Jim

BettyO · 02-14-2013, 02:14 PM

Cobblestone is HORRID to walk over, Jim - particularly if you're wearing heels or wedges!

Jim Page · 02-14-2013, 02:49 PM

(02-14-2013 02:14 PM)BettyO Wrote: Cobblestone is HORRID to walk over, Jim - particularly if you're wearing heels or wedges!

Well, they ain't a treat when you're wearing Chuck Taylors, either!

--Jim

mgambuzza · 02-14-2013, 03:42 PM

(02-14-2013 01:55 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: Joan Chaconas (my D.C. history expert) and I discussed this alley question. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason as to what streets were "cared for" and which ones were left as dirt until after the Civil War. However, both of us are taking an educated guess that the cobblestones may well have been there - and we are basing this solely on the fact that the alley led to the back of a theater where props, lumber, etc. had to delivered; and adjacent was the back of an undertaking establishment where corpses and coffins were taken. It seems logical that sturdier pavement would be needed for heavier loads (not just horses), especially in the rainy season.

I believe there is a book about the alleys of Washington, but I don't know if it goes into their paving history. I really should read that book because I have always been interested in the stories of the alley dwellers. Some of the alleys have great names, like Louse Alley, Tin Cup Alley, Marble Alley, and Fighting Alley. Several of the 73 brothels of D.C. during the Civil War were listed as being in some of these alleys. In fact, one in Fighting Alley was owned by Margaret HANKS. She employed six "inmates," but the Provost Marshal's Office listed it as low class in their 1864-65 report.

Laurie:

If you do find that book on alleys I would love to read it. I am a closet alley dweller!

Mike

L Verge · 02-14-2013, 05:06 PM

Remember that there were alley dwellers in Baptist Alley. One, Mary Ann Jackson (am I right on that name?), gave testimony.

jonathan · 02-14-2013, 10:51 PM

(02-14-2013 05:06 PM)L Verge Wrote: Remember that there were alley dwellers in Baptist Alley. One, Mary Ann Jackson (am I right on that name?), gave testimony.

I'm guessing you mean Mary Jane Anderson. She's one of my favorite assassination characters. I'm fascinated by the "regular people" who found themselves in some way connected to this great crime. Once in a while, I'll find myself just thinking about Ms. Anderson, sitting on her porch on Baptist Alley...seeing Booth go into the theater, then later seeing him tear out the back door, jump on his horse and make that first mad dash out of the city. In those moments, she would have no way of knowing exactly what she had just witnessed, the significance of it, or that we'd be talking about her all these years later. The thought of sitting on that porch and watching the first moments of Booth's getaway after shooting Lincoln, literally has the hair on my arms doing a little dance right now. Lucinda Holloway is another "regular" person I'm fascinated by. How could she have ever imagined that she would have wound up there on the porch of the Garrett house, comforting Lincoln's assassin in his last moments. These are the things that make me wonder why movie makers don't just take the time to get it right. History has plenty of excitement, it doesn't need to be embellished.

Jim Garrett · 02-15-2013, 06:18 AM

(02-14-2013 08:56 AM)mgambuzza Wrote:
(02-13-2013 06:44 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mike and I have already exchanged e-mails on his dream, and I'm afraid that I was pessimistic also. First of all, there has been a great deal of money spent on revitalizing Chinatown ever since the big Verizon Center arena went in down the street. That has driven up the real estate costs tremendously. And, with the wide push for cultural diversity now, there would be a definite fight to preserve the Oriental flavor (sorry, bad pun) of the building since it is surrounded by similar buildings and restaurants.

An investor would have a very difficult running the maze of D.C. government, which exists at the whim of the U.S. government. The acquisition process and permits alone would be a killer, IMO.

Finally, you would need the blessing of the NPS and the Interior Department to get it even on the National Registry of Historic Places. Surratt House has been on the Registry since 1976. However, twice in the past twenty years, we have tried to climb the ladder to be declared a National Landmark. Both times, we have been rejected with words that mainly said that Ford's Theatre and the Petersen House are all that are needed to remind people of the horrible assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

I forgot to add that it will take very deep pockets to maintain a museum without a broad-based support system. If privately run, it would require a hefty endowment of millions of dollars - and museums that are properly run do not touch their endowments; they operate off the interest that the endowments provide as well as grants and donations.

Frankly, I would not work for a museum that did not have a tax-based government organization behind it to pay salaries, maintenance, phone bills, electric bills, HVAC bills, security, real estate taxes, and the like.

Note to David - I almost screamed the day I walked out the back door of Ford's and found my beloved cobblestones were gone, along with the smell of an alley. Call me stupid, but the decay of Baptist Alley was part of the charm of the story. When you walked up those cobblestone pathways and smelled the filth, it gave you a great sense of what the alley was like in 1865. You know there had to be tobacco spittle and human waste out that back door in a time when cleanliness was not necessarily next to godliness.

History is not always just the printed word - it needs to play on the senses also. That's when the human element really kicks in and brings past events to light.

I also have to relate one story about the alley. About ten years ago, I was the last one out the stage door on a Surratt Booth Tour. I exited to see our group standing around the narrator, and out of the corner of my eye, I see four young "gentlemen" of the neighborhood conducting some kind of transaction off to the side. As we continued to talk to the group, these men started walking towards us. My school teacher instincts stepped in, and I quietly moved so that I was between the men and the group. Believe it or not, these four started listening to the narrator, and as the group walked up the alley, the young men started asking me questions. I answered as nicely as I could while slowly walking toward the group. At one point, I knew the group would make a left-hand turn, and I would be left alone in that alley with my new students. I finally excused myself and hustled to catch up. However, I truly felt like we had made a slight dent in those guys' tough exterior that day. I have often hoped that they did a little more educating of themselves on the story of Mr. Lincoln and his murder.

Laurie

I couldn't agree with you more about leaving the alley (I love old alleys!) the way it was. You know, in our current society, many of us are in denial about our history and also about what it is to be human in some respects. For example, I discussed the opposition to preservation of 541H street as glorifying negative and dark periods in American history. Well, that was the history and you can't change it, might as well learn from it.

I visited the Peterson house again after many years and was also disturbed to find that the bloody pillow previously covered in a plexicase cover was no longer there. I guess this was an attempt to "sterilize" the true horror of the assassination. Sometimes I think we are turning into what I've heard teremd the cupcake generation. Like you alluded to in your comment, 1865 DC was a rough and tumble place. It smelled and was dirty, people drank, visited brothels, fought, and killed. That was the reality. Now take away someones Starbucks coffee and cell phone and they won't know what to do! Good times!

BTW: I also visited the new museum at Ford's and I thought they cleaned it up to and changed the focus away from the assassination and focused more on Lincolns's good works. It still is very good and I support the theater as it is near and dear to my heart. I couldn't find the old door to the box though!

Best,

Mike

(02-13-2013 05:07 PM)asobbingfilm Wrote: True everyone has their price but you are overlooking the fact that that is their family business and IMHO $3million for purchase, relocation and restoration is probably very low considering the real estate and labor markets in DC. I would think the restoration alone might be 3-4 million (to really do it right). You are going to have to purchase the building AND relocate them as that is their cash cow. The Wok and Roll is a very hot spot in Chinatown, try getting a table during the lunch rush. Where would you move them? Spaces in DC are at a premium if you can find them. I would love to see them sell out but as you say if it can be done for 3 million, it probably would have already happened. Laurie Verge and others might have some thoughts on this so stay tuned to the thread. My guess is you are talking 10 million minimum with a capital M in minimum. A true historical restoration might present current bld code issues too, but Im no expert on that subject.

I haven't eaten at Wok and Roll but the place a couple of doors down has some excellent spicy chicken with peanuts!

(02-13-2013 08:00 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Nothing better than two middle-aged Jim's wandering around Chinatown slurping egg drop soup!

Jim are you a descendant of the historic Garretts of Port Royal vicinity?

Mike

I have never been able to trace any ancestors to "the other" Garretts. My family were in law enforcement in New Mexico.

BettyO · 02-15-2013, 06:23 AM

(02-15-2013 06:18 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:
(02-14-2013 08:56 AM)mgambuzza Wrote:
(02-13-2013 06:44 PM)L Verge Wrote: Mike and I have already exchanged e-mails on his dream, and I'm afraid that I was pessimistic also. First of all, there has been a great deal of money spent on revitalizing Chinatown ever since the big Verizon Center arena went in down the street. That has driven up the real estate costs tremendously. And, with the wide push for cultural diversity now, there would be a definite fight to preserve the Oriental flavor (sorry, bad pun) of the building since it is surrounded by similar buildings and restaurants.

An investor would have a very difficult running the maze of D.C. government, which exists at the whim of the U.S. government. The acquisition process and permits alone would be a killer, IMO.

Finally, you would need the blessing of the NPS and the Interior Department to get it even on the National Registry of Historic Places. Surratt House has been on the Registry since 1976. However, twice in the past twenty years, we have tried to climb the ladder to be declared a National Landmark. Both times, we have been rejected with words that mainly said that Ford's Theatre and the Petersen House are all that are needed to remind people of the horrible assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

I forgot to add that it will take very deep pockets to maintain a museum without a broad-based support system. If privately run, it would require a hefty endowment of millions of dollars - and museums that are properly run do not touch their endowments; they operate off the interest that the endowments provide as well as grants and donations.

Frankly, I would not work for a museum that did not have a tax-based government organization behind it to pay salaries, maintenance, phone bills, electric bills, HVAC bills, security, real estate taxes, and the like.

Note to David - I almost screamed the day I walked out the back door of Ford's and found my beloved cobblestones were gone, along with the smell of an alley. Call me stupid, but the decay of Baptist Alley was part of the charm of the story. When you walked up those cobblestone pathways and smelled the filth, it gave you a great sense of what the alley was like in 1865. You know there had to be tobacco spittle and human waste out that back door in a time when cleanliness was not necessarily next to godliness.

History is not always just the printed word - it needs to play on the senses also. That's when the human element really kicks in and brings past events to light.

I also have to relate one story about the alley. About ten years ago, I was the last one out the stage door on a Surratt Booth Tour. I exited to see our group standing around the narrator, and out of the corner of my eye, I see four young "gentlemen" of the neighborhood conducting some kind of transaction off to the side. As we continued to talk to the group, these men started walking towards us. My school teacher instincts stepped in, and I quietly moved so that I was between the men and the group. Believe it or not, these four started listening to the narrator, and as the group walked up the alley, the young men started asking me questions. I answered as nicely as I could while slowly walking toward the group. At one point, I knew the group would make a left-hand turn, and I would be left alone in that alley with my new students. I finally excused myself and hustled to catch up. However, I truly felt like we had made a slight dent in those guys' tough exterior that day. I have often hoped that they did a little more educating of themselves on the story of Mr. Lincoln and his murder.

Laurie

I couldn't agree with you more about leaving the alley (I love old alleys!) the way it was. You know, in our current society, many of us are in denial about our history and also about what it is to be human in some respects. For example, I discussed the opposition to preservation of 541H street as glorifying negative and dark periods in American history. Well, that was the history and you can't change it, might as well learn from it.

I visited the Peterson house again after many years and was also disturbed to find that the bloody pillow previously covered in a plexicase cover was no longer there. I guess this was an attempt to "sterilize" the true horror of the assassination. Sometimes I think we are turning into what I've heard teremd the cupcake generation. Like you alluded to in your comment, 1865 DC was a rough and tumble place. It smelled and was dirty, people drank, visited brothels, fought, and killed. That was the reality. Now take away someones Starbucks coffee and cell phone and they won't know what to do! Good times!

BTW: I also visited the new museum at Ford's and I thought they cleaned it up to and changed the focus away from the assassination and focused more on Lincolns's good works. It still is very good and I support the theater as it is near and dear to my heart. I couldn't find the old door to the box though!

Best,

Mike

(02-13-2013 05:07 PM)asobbingfilm Wrote: True everyone has their price but you are overlooking the fact that that is their family business and IMHO $3million for purchase, relocation and restoration is probably very low considering the real estate and labor markets in DC. I would think the restoration alone might be 3-4 million (to really do it right). You are going to have to purchase the building AND relocate them as that is their cash cow. The Wok and Roll is a very hot spot in Chinatown, try getting a table during the lunch rush. Where would you move them? Spaces in DC are at a premium if you can find them. I would love to see them sell out but as you say if it can be done for 3 million, it probably would have already happened. Laurie Verge and others might have some thoughts on this so stay tuned to the thread. My guess is you are talking 10 million minimum with a capital M in minimum. A true historical restoration might present current bld code issues too, but Im no expert on that subject.

I haven't eaten at Wok and Roll but the place a couple of doors down has some excellent spicy chicken with peanuts!

(02-13-2013 08:00 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Nothing better than two middle-aged Jim's wandering around Chinatown slurping egg drop soup!

Jim are you a descendant of the historic Garretts of Port Royal vicinity?

Mike

I have never been able to trace any ancestors to "the other" Garretts. My family were in law enforcement in New Mexico.

Any kin to Pat Garrett of Billy the Kid fame?

Jim Garrett · 02-15-2013, 06:28 AM

Everyone remembers the "pillow in the case" at the Petersen House. The pillow is in the NPS storage facility. People always ask about it. It leaves an iconic impression on all who have viewed it.

During the last night, there were numerous pillows used for the President. Every time MTL wanted to come back to see her husband, the doctors would change the pillows or put fresh linens over the pillows and anything else that may be bloodstained. They didn't want MTL to see all the blood.

The NPS has two pillows from the deeath bed. A smaller pillow that may have come from the Sardo house, next door to the Petersens House, downhill, is on display in the basement museum. It has a sufficient amount of blood to satisfy most people's morbid curiousity.

The blue striped pillow is very very fragile. It is the pillow that was under the President's head when he died. I am told it is so fragile that you could poke your finger through it with very little pressure.

Laurie Verge · 02-15-2013, 09:48 AM

Thanks, Jonathan, for making the correction on the name. The old memory is just not what it used to be! And, I agree that it is fascinating to think how obscure people got drawn into the story of the one of the greatest crimes in American history.

RJNorton · 04-09-2013, 09:51 AM

(02-13-2013 02:23 PM)asobbingfilm Wrote: Welcome !!! I'm certain that the amount of money needed to buy out and relocate the restaurant and do the restoration is astronomical. Ive always said if I win the lottery that I would try. Very touchy subject. Im not sure the current owners know just how important a relic they occupy is. (Or maybe they do). In any case do what I do every time I go to DC. Go to the Wok and Roll sit at the table in the window order the hot and sour soup and the orange chicken (very good BTW) and be satisfied knowing that you ate a meal at the same place more or less that Mary Surrat and other conspirators did. Sadly it may be the best you can do. If I do win the lottery and buy the place out I will have everyone over for THE party of the century when I reopen it as Mary Surratts Bar and Grille (just kidding, I will call it Mary Surratts Boarding House, think of what I could charge as a BnB).

David, I was reading the article here and noticed the last two sentences read, "Mary Surratt's boarding house on H Street has a historic plaque on it but remains a Chinese restaurant. That should be the renovators' next target."