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LincolnMan · 09-19-2012, 01:17 PM

Roger: I would guess that it is not well known among the residents. I say this knowing that there is a public marker at the site denoting the event and Lincoln's presence there. I don't think people, in general, are interested in history all that much. That is just my unscientific guess as I talk to folks who seem to not know the most elementary things about it.

Betty: thanks for the picture of Christian Rath. Speaking of Rath. He has some controversy surrounding him. There are those who claim he intentionally wanted the conspirators to suffer-that the hanging ropes were not appropriately tied. What are your thoughts on that? Others?

BettyO · 09-19-2012, 01:45 PM

Hey, Bill!

I have NEVER heard that Rath was a cruel man or wanted anyone to suffer! Quite the difference. He claimed that he felt really bad about hanging Powell and definitely felt sorry for Mrs.Surratt.

Where was this insinuation from? No, I've never heard that....interesting! I've always heard that he was a rather kind man.

Laurie Verge · 09-19-2012, 02:46 PM

I have to agree with Betty on Rath being kind. I would also add Gen. Hartranft to that list. Others at the Penitentiary were evidently kind to Mrs. Surratt also because Anna wrote a letter to Hartranft thanking those who had shown kindnesses to her mother.

LincolnMan · 09-19-2012, 02:56 PM

I found it very quickly by using Google. Apparently, there are those who question what happened and posit that he was incompetent or was following a directive from his superiors. Does the fact that some might think that way surprise you?

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 09-19-2012 03:45 PM by Gene C.)

As far as incompetent goes, it is probably difficult to hang four people all at the same time, and have them all break their neck in the fall, even if you are an experienced hangman. I would imagine most of the negative comments came from Mary Surratt suporters.

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 09-19-2012 03:44 PM by BettyO.)

Nothing surprises me anymore. Just goes to prove that there is a lot of unfounded and irresponsible data out on the internet - which I always attempt to try and warn folk - particularly kids doing homework. Just 'cause it's out on the net doesn't make it so!

I also think that perhaps Rath was somewhat nervous about this hanging. He had served as a hangman before; but this one was very, very different in that he was going to have to hang a woman - something that he had never done before. I think it went against his grain. Remember he only put 5 turns into Mary's noose; a true hangman's noose is supposedly 7 or 8 turns. Powell's had, I think, 8 to 10 turns....

LincolnMan · 09-19-2012, 07:46 PM

Why only five turns for Mary?

BettyO · 09-19-2012, 08:01 PM

Rath did not really believe that she would hang. It was late at night and he stated that he was tired - so only 5 turns for Mary....

MaddieM · 09-20-2012, 03:24 AM

(09-19-2012 03:43 PM)BettyO Wrote: Nothing surprises me anymore. Just goes to prove that there is a lot of unfounded and irresponsible data out on the internet - which I always attempt to try and warn folk - particularly kids doing homework. Just 'cause it's out on the net doesn't make it so!

I also think that perhaps Rath was somewhat nervous about this hanging. He had served as a hangman before; but this one was very, very different in that he was going to have to hang a woman - something that he had never done before. I think it went against his grain. Remember he only put 5 turns into Mary's noose; a true hangman's noose is supposedly 7 or 8 turns. Powell's had, I think, 8 to 10 turns....

What difference do the turns make? Do more ensure a quicker death, or something? It seems from the photos that each of them had different angles to the neck after the fall? Is there any particular angle that kills the most swiftly. Morbid, but fascinating.

Gene C · 09-20-2012, 04:37 AM

(09-20-2012 03:24 AM)MaddieM Wrote: What difference do the turns make? Do more ensure a quicker death, or something? It seems from the photos that each of them had different angles to the neck after the fall? Is there any particular angle that kills the most swiftly. Morbid, but fascinating.

The number of turns supposidly has to do with keeping the knot from slipping loose. The rope angle to the neck (behind the left ear) is to break the kneck in the fall. My source of info is Wikipedia. Look up "Hangman's knot" on Wikipedia for more info.

BettyO · 09-20-2012, 05:03 AM

Here are two sites on hanging -

http://ct-mtwt.50megs.com/Tools%20of%20C...nging.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Tie-a-Hangmans-Noose

Lindsey · 09-26-2012, 12:55 PM

The only instance I've ever come across that references the angle of their necks was that because Davey's head was the only one titled back, his was the only truly effective hanging. Obviously not the case when reading all the accounts of how long it took him to die.

Jim Garrett · 09-30-2012, 04:51 PM

It just jumped out at me. What a poignant moment. Mrs. Surratt is kissing the crucifix! I got a question.....why do they remove the shoes from the condemned?

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 09-30-2012 06:39 PM by BettyO.)

Powell had just white socks on to begin with - he didn't wear shoes or boots in prison (a fallacy in The Conspirator which shows him wearing riding boots the entire time until he mounts the scaffold....); Powell's feet had swollen so much under the chafing of his leg irons that he couldn't get boots on so he was provided with clean socks and slippers. He did not wear the slippers to the scaffold; just the socks. Herold wore slippers to the scaffold as did Atzerodt - and it was stated that George's slippers were "blue in color"....

I don't know about Mrs. Surratt - but it seems that the reason that shoes/boots are removed when condemned are hanged was because in the death throes, if they kick their feet around, the shoes/boots would not fly off into the "audience" and strike people! At least that is what I heard....

Linda Anderson · 09-30-2012, 07:13 PM

(09-30-2012 04:51 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: It just jumped out at me. What a poignant moment. Mrs. Surratt is kissing the crucifix! I got a question.....why do they remove the shoes from the condemned?

Here is the photograph that Jim is referring to that Betty posted earlier in the thread. I never noticed the crucifix before or the white stole the priest is wearing. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "the stole is only used, and must be used, at a function peculiar to the deacon, priest, and bishop, a function that presupposes the order (e.g., at the celebration of Mass, when the Blessed Sacrament is touched, when the sacraments are administered), but not for example, in processions or at Vespers." Does anyone know when Mary received Extreme Unction, now called Anointing of the Sick?

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