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Laurie Verge · 03-07-2013, 09:29 AM

I'm going to sidestep the treasonous administration official issue at the moment because I think it deserves to die an ignoble death. I am much more interested in Jerry's research regarding what could possibly be previously ignored links to "the New York crowd."

I have said several times before that Fernando Wood intrigued me after reading Michael Kline's excellent book on the Baltimore Plot several years ago. Now Jerry throws in his brother, Benjamin. My interest is sure piqued...

JMadonna · 03-07-2013, 11:02 AM

Don't forget Horatio Seymour NY governor and Democrat preidential candidate in 1868.
The last episode of BBC's Copper was all about the burning of New York where one of the good guys uncovers the plot. When asked why he didn't report it he said: 'To
who? the mayor, governor and half the city council are Copperheads." They did their research.

Laurie Verge · 03-07-2013, 05:02 PM

Jerry,

Do you have intentions of writing your next book along these lines? If not, you should! Nothing would give this Southern She Rebel greater pleasure than to prove a Yankee did it! Throw in ties to Judah Benjamin of the Confederacy, and I will be in seventh heaven.

J. Beckert · (This post was last modified: 03-07-2013 05:49 PM by J. Beckert.)

Sure. Blame it on the Yankees.

KateH. · 03-07-2013, 06:15 PM

I'm with the Southern She Rebel. That would be a very interesting read. If Jerry wrote it, I would definitely buy it. Even though I'm from the north, I've always been more of a southern girl. I plan on moving to Maryland in about three years. Just a little off-topic fun fact Smile

John Stanton · 03-07-2013, 07:01 PM

JMadonna. Re post #176. Contrary to Jacob Thompson's statement that he would not write his "life story". he did write a Shortened, or Slanted version. (I shouldn't start a msg like this, until I refressed my mind on names and dates) He started to write, but his handwriting was unreadable. So, his grand daughter translated what had been written, and then took dictation for the rest. I think that was "Mamie". Since I had the St. Albans Raiders mess in mind, I did not read the remainnder. For example, you will not learn - that he orderd the Raiders - Twice - not to go on the raid, and then refused to defend them (until ordered by Richmond to pay for the defense), in any other source. I doubt that Mamie would Edit that information, you could easily call it "Prime Source". Are you familiar with this writing?

L Verge · 03-07-2013, 07:58 PM

Joe - I always try to blame it on the Yankees!!! Sorry, it's in the blood.

Kate - Maryland will welcome you with open arms. Move within an hour's drive of Surratt House and come join our volunteer force. We let you dress like Scarlett O'Hara and everything (but it has to be period correct).

JMadonna · 03-07-2013, 10:56 PM

(03-07-2013 07:01 PM)John Stanton Wrote: JMadonna. Re post #176. Contrary to Jacob Thompson's statement that he would not write his "life story". he did write a Shortened, or Slanted version. (I shouldn't start a msg like this, until I refressed my mind on names and dates) He started to write, but his handwriting was unreadable. So, his grand daughter translated what had been written, and then took dictation for the rest. I think that was "Mamie". Since I had the St. Albans Raiders mess in mind, I did not read the remainnder. For example, you will not learn - that he orderd the Raiders - Twice - not to go on the raid, and then refused to defend them (until ordered by Richmond to pay for the defense), in any other source. I doubt that Mamie would Edit that information, you could easily call it "Prime Source". Are you familiar with this writing?

No, not at all. Could you refresh yourself and point me in the right direction?

John Stanton · 03-08-2013, 12:08 AM

(03-07-2013 10:56 PM)JMadonna Wrote:
(03-07-2013 07:01 PM)John Stanton Wrote: JMadonna. Re post #176. Contrary to Jacob Thompson's statement that he would not write his "life story". he did write a Shortened, or Slanted version. (I shouldn't start a msg like this, until I refressed my mind on names and dates) He started to write, but his handwriting was unreadable. So, his grand daughter translated what had been written, and then took dictation for the rest. I think that was "Mamie". Since I had the St. Albans Raiders mess in mind, I did not read the remainnder. For example, you will not learn - that he orderd the Raiders - Twice - not to go on the raid, and then refused to defend them (until ordered by Richmond to pay for the defense), in any other source. I doubt that Mamie would Edit that information, you could easily call it "Prime Source". Are you familiar with this writing?

No, not at all. Could you refresh yourself and point me in the right direction?

A man named Claiborn wrote "Prominent Tennasseans". I have to hunt more to find out where you can find a copy.

John Fazio · 03-08-2013, 04:32 AM

(03-07-2013 05:11 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Based on what he writes in his book I assume Shelton thought William Seward (or possibly Stanton) was the "mystery Cabinet member" who was guilty of treason. How would evidence of that sort end up in the Lincoln Papers? Why would Robert Lincoln tell just one person about it...Horace G. Young (a golfing partner of Robert's)? If this were really such a great story why didn't it surface before 1937?

Jason Emerson writes, "Perhaps the greatest myth concerning the Abraham Lincoln papers - and certainly the most enduring - is that Robert Lincoln, before giving them up, purposely burned countless of his father's manuscripts in order to purge and purify the family legacy."

Like Laurie, I am very skeptical of those other sources. Regarding Emanuel Hertz, Paul Angle wrote that the Hertz collection was indiscriminate, undocumented, and full of fraudulent material. It was "worse than useless." Dr. Mark Neely writes that the entire story is the "purest bunk." John, as you know, I am fascinated with your work and enjoy it immensely. I thank you for all the work you do. But, regarding this story about Robert Lincoln, I am unconvinced.

I mentioned this once before...IMO, I find this whole story highly suspect as it first became public at just about the same time Eisenschiml's book was published.

Roger:

Thank you for your response.

I too am unconvinced. The evidence for it is weak. For that reason, I should not have said the story is true, but only that it is alleged to be true. Thank you for your references to Emerson and Angle.

John

John Fazio · 03-20-2013, 12:44 PM

(03-05-2013 01:21 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Gene, here's what I have on the topic of Robert burning papers. Nicholas Murray Butler insisted in 1939 the date of the alleged burning of papers was 1923. This was a story in Butler's memoirs. Butler had gone to see Robert Lincoln at the insistence of Horace G. Young who had told him Robert was burning his father's papers. The problem with Butler's story is that Robert Lincoln had turned the papers over to the Library of Congress in 1919. Maybe there were some extra papers Lincoln didn't turn over in 1919. Maybe it never happened at all. Whether or not it did happen, one thing is for sure: no one, other than Robert himself, knew what papers were burned (if indeed they were burned at all). There is no way I know of that connects any of these alleged burned letters to be treason-related. I believe Jason Emerson feels Robert might have burned some papers that were private and family-related but had nothing to do with treason by a Cabinet member. I think Jason also feels Robert may also have burned some of his own papers. This is why I asked John about a source for Robert burning papers regarding treason by a Cabinet member; I am not aware of Robert ever saying this. But, if he really did, I am curious to know about it and where it came from.

Roger:

I tried to email something to Wild Bill Richter. He gave me his card at the conference and as I read it, his address is: williamrichter.com. But every time I try to email something to that address, I get a notice of nondelivery. Do you know his proper address? If so, please send it to me at: johncfazio@neohio.twcbc.com.

Thank you.

John

Bill Richter · 03-20-2013, 01:04 PM

John Fazio: My address is richters@dakotacom.net

John Fazio · 03-23-2013, 04:34 PM

(03-20-2013 01:04 PM)william l. richter Wrote: John Fazio: My address is richters@dakotacom.net

Bill:

Thanks. I have made a note of it.

By the way, I like that picture you use of the King. I have his biography. Among other things he said that the business about his being "the King" was a lot of nonsense, that he just happened to be at the right place at the right time. I don't think he was any great shakes as an actor, but he sure did have presence. You may or may not know that he was from Cadiz (Kat' iss), Ohio, a small burg mid-south and east in the state, and that his real name was --are you ready for this---? ---Clark Gable. The picture you have, I am certain, is from Gone With the Wind, when the war is over and he is playing cards with Union generals. I must give some thought to such an I.D.

It was good seeing you and some of the others at the conference.

Stay well.

John

wsanto · 03-26-2013, 03:11 PM

Apologies if this was discussed previously--

Fletcher testified he saw Herold coming from the direction of the Treasury Building towards Willard's Hotel at about 1015-1030 PM. If one were to leave Seward's residence in Laffayette Park and ride in the direction of the Navy Yard one would ride past the Treasury Building and then past Willard's exactly where Fletcher saw him.

I think this testimony cleary puts Herold closer to Seward's residence than any other crime scene at this critical time of the assassination (or attemted assassinations).

L Verge · 03-26-2013, 07:01 PM

I pointed this out quite some time ago and was ignored. You and I may stand alone on this. I still think Herold was with Powell long enough to see Lew enter the Seward home and then headed off to check on Atzerodt and meet up with Booth.