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Jim Page · 11-30-2012, 05:58 PM

(11-30-2012 04:57 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: Someone (wsantos?) asked why the carbines and supplies would have been stashed at Surrattsville if Booth had intended going north.

That stuck me as an excellent point. It seems to be a conclusive indicator that Booth planned to head south all along, or at least as far south as Surrattsville, and that the broken leg didn't change his intentions.

--Jim

JMadonna · 11-30-2012, 06:12 PM

(11-30-2012 10:02 AM)RJNorton Wrote: But the written word of a dead person to me is different - why would that be hearsay?

Roger,
Gossip magazines make their living on hearsay. Just because the author of a gossip article is dead doesn't sanctify what he wrote is the truth.

With no collaborating evidence the diary would not be admissible.

However, in the court of public opinion the rules are different.

JMadonna · 11-30-2012, 07:30 PM

(11-30-2012 11:14 AM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I'm going to get myself in trouble with Jerry again, but if Booth and Herold had passes signed by VP Johnson, they could have exited the city any way they wanted. Why the bridge into Southern Maryland if they did not intend to use the services of the Secret Line in that area?

I did read your book, but I forget the line of reasoning as to why they headed south if they intended to go north. That part of the plan seems to have been thought of ahead of time and did not depend on or change because of a broken leg.

No plans are perfect. Things always happen. Booth wanted his pursuers to believe he was heading south. He certainly left enough bread crumbs to point that way. The map in Atzerodt's room, the exit using the Navy Yard Bridge, the directions to the sentry, the rifle at the tavern - all were red herrings.

The secret line south was in tact for the kidnapping plot but after the fall of Richmond there was nothing south but Union soldiers. Mary Surrat's mission was part of the bread crumb trail. Booth had no need for rifles or field-glasses. What he needed was speed and a route out of the country.

That meant heading north for the railway station as soon as he left the bridge when the accident happened. If Herold had not been following Booth the chase would have probably ended at the site of the accident.

As it was he headed for medical attention from the only Doctor south that he could trust.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 11-30-2012 08:46 PM by L Verge.)

Booth and Herold were still not together when reaching the top of Good Hope Hill, which at that time was outside the city and approximately 2-3 miles from the bridge. That's where they were both spotted by Polk Gardiner and a farmhand from Dr. Blandford, who lived a few miles south of Surrattsville. Obviously Booth hadn't broken his leg at that point. So he was getting farther and farther away from any rail station. BTW: Dr. Blandford was married to Dr. Mudd's sister, and the fugitives rode right past their home, which was within fifty feet of the road. It was still standing until around 1965 or so.

I would also say that the Secret Line in Southern Maryland was still intact and took good care of Booth the whole time he was there. You know my personal feeling that Herold was in that area on April 12-13 spreading the alert signal that something was going to happen very quickly. They also got bogged down waiting around for an opportunity to cross the Potomac, but they were taken care of by Secret Line members and perhaps others. Rick Smith should chime in here.

Once Booth entered the Northern Neck of Virginia, he still wasn't doing too badly. Thomas Harbin, Joseph Baden and perhaps Mr. Crismond certainly got him some escort service to Dr. Stuart's home. Stuart wasn't friendly, but he was smart and also tired of being arrested by the feds. It appears that it was Booth's bad manners that got him kicked out of the Peyton house. And then, he decided to dally and enjoy his stay at the Garretts'. I think that was a mistake on his part.

I suspect he could have kept on going for awhile and found assistance along the way to Richmond by blending in with the rest of the chaos in at least Virginia. Yes, the South was filled with Union soldiers, but the North was filled with Union soldiers and civilian Yankees!

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it -- just as I know you will stick to your theories. It will be a miracle if we can ever substantiate them with facts.

Forgot to add that I think rail stations and trains would have been some of the first places searched - and they didn't run every 15 minutes. Also, I suspect that telegraph lines were at or very near train stations so that alerts could go out quickly once the search was organized.

Speaking of telegraphs, the fugitives rode right past Forts Stanton and Baker (I think those were the ones) as they climbed Good Hope Hill. Military lines were still functioning, but evidently the alert was sent after they passed.

J. Beckert · (This post was last modified: 11-30-2012 09:57 PM by J. Beckert.)

I haven't read your book, Jerry and I don't expect you to explain it all here, but I do find new twists on this case intriguing. However, something's not adding up. Booth stopped at the tavern for rifles he didn't need? He didn't take one, but he may have taken one if he hadn't broke his leg. Herold did take one.

Because of the remark about heading farther away from the railroad stations, I'm scoring this round 10-9 for Laurie "The Teacher" Verge.

Please follow all the instructions, fight clean, touch gloves and come out fighting. (Be careful, Jerry. She gets knocked down a lot, but she always gets back up.)

Jim Garrett · 12-01-2012, 05:29 AM

(11-30-2012 09:55 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I haven't read your book, Jerry and I don't expect you to explain it all here, but I do find new twists on this case intriguing. However, something's not adding up. Booth stopped at the tavern for rifles he didn't need? He didn't take one, but he may have taken one if he hadn't broke his leg. Herold did take one.

Because of the remark about heading farther away from the railroad stations, I'm scoring this round 10-9 for Laurie "The Teacher" Verge.

Please follow all the instructions, fight clean, touch gloves and come out fighting. (Be careful, Jerry. She gets knocked down a lot, but she always gets back up.)

And if you dare use potty mouth.....you have to clean the black board and erasers. Plan on staying after school.

RJNorton · 12-01-2012, 05:44 AM

(11-30-2012 06:12 PM)JMadonna Wrote: Roger,
Gossip magazines make their living on hearsay. Just because the author of a gossip article is dead doesn't sanctify what he wrote is the truth.

Hearsay can be either true or false. Mary Surratt was hanged due to hearsay. John Lloyd testified to the words of Mary Surratt. Mary Surratt was not allowed to take the stand. In other words, Lloyd was testifying as to what another person said, and the court did not hear from the other person. There was no one else to corroborate Lloyd's version of what Mary said. Lloyd also testified as to what Booth and Herold said about midnight on the 14th. Booth said little, if anything, but Herold said quite a bit. All of that testimony of Lloyd is hearsay because he is testifying about the words of either dead people (Booth) or people who are not allowed to testify (Herold). The same is true about Weichmann's testimony concerning certain uncorroborated conversations or words spoken by Mary Surratt - all of that is hearsay. The court never heard her version of the conversations.

This isn't to say Mary Surratt would have been found innocent if all the hearsay of Lloyd and Weichmann were thrown out. But the government's case against her would definitely have been weakened, and I don't believe she would have hanged. I suppose it's possible their hearsay could have been allowed under some technicality.

Hearsay evidence can be thrown out in court irregardless if it's true or false. Evidence that is 100% true can be dismissed as hearsay as well as evidence that is 100% false. I still think Booth's diary would probably be admitted - I don't see his own writing as being hearsay, even if some of what he wrote was wrong or embellished.

JMadonna · (This post was last modified: 12-01-2012 09:09 AM by JMadonna.)

On the move today - read my whole theory Laurie- you'll see I've accounted for that. Will rebutt when I get back

JMadonna · 12-02-2012, 09:06 AM

(11-30-2012 08:38 PM)L Verge Wrote: 1. Booth and Herold were still not together when reaching the top of Good Hope Hill, which at that time was outside the city and approximately 2-3 miles from the bridge. That's where they were both spotted by Polk Gardiner and a farmhand from Dr. Blandford, who lived a few miles south of Surrattsville. Obviously Booth hadn't broken his leg at that point. So he was getting farther and farther away from any rail station.

2. You know my personal feeling that Herold was in that area on April 12-13 spreading the alert signal that something was going to happen very quickly.

3. Forgot to add that I think rail stations and trains would have been some of the first places searched - and they didn't run every 15 minutes. Also, I suspect that telegraph lines were at or very near train stations so that alerts could go out quickly once the search was organized.

Laurie,
Your first point is correct. Exactly where the horse tripped after he crossed the bridge is a matter of debate. I believe his next stop was the tavern, which was slightly out of his way if he was heading for Baltimore. Why do it? One, to leave a bread crumb trail but more important - to get fresh horses for his all night ride north.

What was Mary Surratt's mission that day? To get those 'shootin irons' ready? Highly doubtful. She was under the belief that the kidnapping plot was going to be executed only Booth knew the real mission at that time. What he needed at that point in his escape was speed and distance not 'shootin irons'. Her real message was for Nothey to get the horses ready. This I believe was Herold's mission the day before - to locate where the horses were at. (supposedly they were in TB under the care of a notorious rebel who's name escapes me).

Whatever, as I said before things happen. Either Nothey was too drunk to get the horses, the horses were moved elsewhere or the horses were ready but Booth was too injured to be moved and complete the escape. We do know that the shootin irons were not ready because that was not the message she gave Nothey. They were still hidden behind the wall but under the stress of his interrogation and to protect members of the secret line, Nothey said that was her mission and it's been accepted ever since.

To Booth, the failure to get fresh horses really didn't matter when he reached the tavern. Even if they were there (which we don't know for certain) Booth's freshly broken leg forced a change in his plan. He headed to Dr. Mudd's for medical attention and you know the story from there.

As far as Booth being picked up because the telegraph would alert authorities again is doubtful. They had no pictures and from the dispatches I've read no physical description. A quick shave and some makeup would have gotten the actor by the detectives and quickly headed to friends in New York and Canada. It was his best chance and he knew it.

L Verge · 12-02-2012, 12:25 PM

Boy, I don't know where to start with the red pen.

First, I believe you have erroneously referred to Nothey throughout this explanation when you really meant Lloyd? Mr. Nothey lived a ways from the tavern.

According to John Lloyd, the shooting irons were ready because he had removed them earlier that evening and placed them in the adjacent bedroom. Do you believe that Mrs. Surratt is totally innocent of all charges?

Were the horses originally supposed to be at the tavern? First I've heard of that. As for your "hint" that they were in T.B. with the notorious rebel, Mr. Huntt, someday I will show you the letters that I have from Mr. Huntt in Baltimore to Mrs. Huntt in Southern Maryland written during the Baltimore Riots in which he deplores the secessionists. Also, Mrs. Huntt had introduced Methodism to her husband's family when they married and was of the anti-slavery persuasion (even though her father-in-law still retained his until 1864). Eli and Laura Huntt, however, lived in their own house without servants approximately three miles from his parents and their servants.

My personal opinion, IF there were horses to be had in T.B., it was through John Chandler Thompson, proprietor of the T.B. Hotel (where Davey had spent the night on March 17) and owner of the livery stable across the road that supplied fresh teams of horses for the stage line that ran past the hotel. Only a four-acre field separated the T.B. Hotel from the Huntts' house.

Thompson was alive through my grandmother's childhood, and she remembered him well as siding with the South. I have often wondered why researchers haven't traced him a bit more. He was brought to D.C. for questioning. I have also wondered if Atzerodt had Thompson confused with Mr. Huntt when he claimed that fresh horses were to be supplied the kidnappers in T.B.

As for the distance from Surrattsville to Baltimore: With modern, straight, high-speed highways today, it still takes over an hour to make it to downtown Baltimore, which is approximately 60 miles north. Even with fresh horses, that would have been pushing it.

By the time he arrived in Baltimore, the telegraph would surely have been reporting that it was Booth for whom the authorities were searching and that he might be heading for his hometown. Also Baltimore had been heavily fortified with troops throughout the war. Booth's picture was distributed shortly after the deed (for those days), and he was more likely to be quickly recognized in Baltimore and points north than in Southern Maryland.

We are never going to reconcile our differences in opinion, Jerry, because the facts are just not there. It's really fun (at least for me) to hypothesize on what could have happened, but after awhile, I think we do history a disservice if we don't produce tangible evidence.

Jim Garrett · 12-02-2012, 01:08 PM

(12-02-2012 12:25 PM)L Verge Wrote: Boy, I don't know where to start with the red pen.

First, I believe you have erroneously referred to Nothey throughout this explanation when you really meant Lloyd? Mr. Nothey lived a ways from the tavern.

According to John Lloyd, the shooting irons were ready because he had removed them earlier that evening and placed them in the adjacent bedroom. Do you believe that Mrs. Surratt is totally innocent of all charges?

Were the horses originally supposed to be at the tavern? First I've heard of that. As for your "hint" that they were in T.B. with the notorious rebel, Mr. Huntt, someday I will show you the letters that I have from Mr. Huntt in Baltimore to Mrs. Huntt in Southern Maryland written during the Baltimore Riots in which he deplores the secessionists. Also, Mrs. Huntt had introduced Methodism to her husband's family when they married and was of the anti-slavery persuasion (even though her father-in-law still retained his until 1864). Eli and Laura Huntt, however, lived in their own house without servants approximately three miles from his parents and their servants.

My personal opinion, IF there were horses to be had in T.B., it was through John Chandler Thompson, proprietor of the T.B. Hotel (where Davey had spent the night on March 17) and owner of the livery stable across the road that supplied fresh teams of horses for the stage line that ran past the hotel. Only a four-acre field separated the T.B. Hotel from the Huntts' house.

Thompson was alive through my grandmother's childhood, and she remembered him well as siding with the South. I have often wondered why researchers haven't traced him a bit more. He was brought to D.C. for questioning. I have also wondered if Atzerodt had Thompson confused with Mr. Huntt when he claimed that fresh horses were to be supplied the kidnappers in T.B.

As for the distance from Surrattsville to Baltimore: With modern, straight, high-speed highways today, it still takes over an hour to make it to downtown Baltimore, which is approximately 60 miles north. Even with fresh horses, that would have been pushing it.

By the time he arrived in Baltimore, the telegraph would surely have been reporting that it was Booth for whom the authorities were searching and that he might be heading for his hometown. Also Baltimore had been heavily fortified with troops throughout the war. Booth's picture was distributed shortly after the deed (for those days), and he was more likely to be quickly recognized in Baltimore and points north than in Southern Maryland.

We are never going to reconcile our differences in opinion, Jerry, because the facts are just not there. It's really fun (at least for me) to hypothesize on what could have happened, but after awhile, I think we do history a disservice if we don't produce tangible evidence.

Well Said, Nuff Said.

Gene C · 12-02-2012, 02:14 PM

Did Booth have to go out of his way to go to Mudd's? Were there other doctors who were closer, and probably just as good?

L Verge · 12-02-2012, 03:41 PM

Booth rode past one on his way to the tavern. I can't remember the doctor's name, but Lloyd mentions it and said that he told Booth about the man, but that the doctor was retired. It would have meant circling back about a half-mile, but certainly a doctor would have tended someone who came to him in pain.

As I said before, Booth and Herold then rode past Dr. Blandford's home, which sat right on the New Cut Road (now Brandywine Road) before getting to T.B. There was no doctor in T.B. at that time. My great-grandfather paid to set one up in practice after the war.

My personal opinion is that, if Booth's broken bone was just the fibula, he could have sucked up the pain and kept on going north to wherever Jerry thinks was his intent. I still think Mudd's was a planned stopover on a planned escape into the South. It's just my thinking - not my declaration, but it makes more sense with Herold having been in Southern Maryland the day before.

L Verge · 12-02-2012, 07:17 PM

Every now and then the memory comes back. The doctor who was retired near Surratt House was Dr. Hoxton. A ca. 1970s subdivision stands now on his farm.

J. Beckert · 12-02-2012, 09:02 PM

You can't deny that Jerry "The Deep Thinker" Madonna brings an unorthodox style and some interesting theories into the ring, but it appears that Laurie "The Teacher" Verge has seen this pugilistic style before. From ringside, it appears "The Teacher" beat Jerry like a red headed Yankee kid she caught shooting a spitball at her. If Madonna doesn't enter the ring with some proof for the next round, it's over. I score this round 10-8 for "The Teacher".