What is your best one-word description of President Abraham Lincoln's character?

[Rob Wick]

Ah David you are a funny one, even if you don't watch The Simpsons.

As for making me smarter, I have one major request. How about writing something that makes sense.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(10-06-2023 01:28 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Ah David you are a funny one, even if you don't watch The Simpsons.

As for making me smarter, I have one major request. How about writing something that makes sense.

Best
Rob

Rob, you wrote in your post #26:

"When I was in college, I took a special topics course on the life of Lincoln. Held like a seminar where each person took a topic and wrote a paper on it. I was given the topic of Lincoln and his cabinet. One of the quotes I remember from Burton Hendrick's book Lincoln's War Cabinet (which I honestly think is better than Team of Rivals; sorry, David) was . . . ."

In the next paragraph of post #26, you wrote:

"To look at Lincoln as "human" requires us to accept that for every virtue Lincoln had, he also had numerous vices and frailties."

Do you recall any quotes that you used in your college paper, that came directly from Burton Hendrick's book Lincoln's War Cabinet, in which Burton Hendrick discusses some of President Abraham Lincoln's "numerous vices and frailties"?

[Rob Wick]

David,
Forgetting for a moment that it's been 40 years since I read the book, why would it matter if Hendrick discussed or did not discuss any of Lincoln's foibles? Your highlighted text makes it appear to you that Hendrick shares in your hero worship. Whether he does or doesn't is irrelevant. Besides, I think a strong argument could be made that Lincoln made deep errors in his cabinet selections. I can't think of anyone who believes Simon Cameron was a great choice. Maybe Lincoln was impressed by the fact that he believed Cameron wouldn't steal a hot stove.

Also, Salmon Chase was a poor choice. I don't believe for a moment that no one else in Washington could run the Treasury Department. Chase was not a loyal cabinet member and did what he could to undermine his boss, which is not a great resume bullet point.

David, it appears to me that you don't believe Lincoln was all that great. After all, if criticism of Lincoln could lead to the ruin of his "character and reputation," as you so often put it, how great a person could he be? You most definitely are free to remain living with your child-like viewpoint of Lincoln but realize that the rest of us have grown up. While the vast majority of us still admire Lincoln despite his frailties and vices, we don't fear them like you do.

Best
Robv

[Steve]

(10-06-2023 10:19 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I had to consult dictionary.com on the word "cromulent." It means: "acceptable or legitimate."

David, the word cromulent was first coined in a 1996 episode of a television show called The Simpsons which first aired when I was a kid. The Simpsons is an animated comedy show airing on the American Fox television network from 1989 to the present. It had previously run as animated shorts on a sketch comedy show on the same network for a couple of years prior. Comparable animated comedy shows might be The Flintstones or the first season of The Jetsons.

Cromulent was created by the writers as a joke, occurring twice in the episode and, while never defined, is seemingly given contradictory context-derived meanings the two different times it is used in the episode. As far as I am aware the joke is a one-off, not reappearing in an episode the following 27 years.

In the first instance of cromulent in the episode two school teachers are talking to each other during a school assembly and one remarks to the other that she hasn't heard of a particular word before moving to the town, with the other teacher replying that "I don't why, it's a perfectly cromulent word." Cromulent seemingly would mean fine or acceptable based on this quote. But in a call back much later in the episode, the town's mayor praises a character's "cromulent performance" With cromulent seemingly meaning great or wonderful this time. Of course since "cromulent" was made up by the writers of the episode it needn't have a comprehensible definition.

It was The Simpsons and this joke of cromulent meaning whatever the context surrounding it makes it mean - which made me think "cromulent" all by itself would be a perfectly good joke reply to this thread.

[David Lockmiller]

(10-08-2023 02:13 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  David,
Forgetting for a moment that it's been 40 years since I read the book, why would it matter if Hendrick discussed or did not discuss any of Lincoln's foibles? Your highlighted text makes it appear to you that Hendrick shares in your hero worship. Whether he does or doesn't is irrelevant. Besides, I think a strong argument could be made that Lincoln made deep errors in his cabinet selections. I can't think of anyone who believes Simon Cameron was a great choice. Maybe Lincoln was impressed by the fact that he believed Cameron wouldn't steal a hot stove.

Also, Salmon Chase was a poor choice. I don't believe for a moment that no one else in Washington could run the Treasury Department. Chase was not a loyal cabinet member and did what he could to undermine his boss, which is not a great resume bullet point.

David, it appears to me that you don't believe Lincoln was all that great. After all, if criticism of Lincoln could lead to the ruin of his "character and reputation," as you so often put it, how great a person could he be? You most definitely are free to remain living with your child-like viewpoint of Lincoln but realize that the rest of us have grown up. While the vast majority of us still admire Lincoln despite his frailties and vices, we don't fear them like you do.

Best
Robv

Was your reply supposed to make sense? If so, it was a complete failure.

According to you, in all my previous posts I was attempting to "deify" President Abraham Lincoln. Now, in this post, you state: "it appears to me that you don't believe Lincoln was all that great."

I was born on May 30. That makes me mercurial, in your opinion, I suppose.

And, thank you for granting me the permission to maintain my personal viewpoint of President Abraham Lincoln.

I am glad we both live under protections afforded by the Constitution to express ourselves freely. Although, sometimes, I wonder whether or not you are native to this planet and therefore do not have all of the constitutional rights of native born United States citizens.

You also wrote: "Maybe Lincoln was impressed by the fact that he believed Cameron wouldn't steal a hot stove." You do realize that was a stolen line, don't you? Your background as a journalist should have "shouted" to you to provide attribution.

[RJNorton]

David, please do not feel obligated to answer here and now, but maybe sometime when you have had time to think about my question for you. What if Lincoln had not been assassinated and lived to lead the nation during Reconstruction? Do you think you would feel exactly the same about Lincoln had he lived through two full terms? Thank you, David.

[Rob Wick]

David,

That you fail to understand irony doesn't surprise me. That you think my response was a complete failure appears to be "a stolen line" from my comment that you often fail to make sense. Again, not surprising. I think I would consider you mercurial whether you were born on March 30 or November 12.

I think it's time for me to remove myself from this discussion, as it does nothing to further Lincoln studies, although I'm sure it does provide entertainment to many others.

I also look forward to seeing if you respond to Roger's question.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(10-08-2023 02:56 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  David, What if Lincoln had not been assassinated and lived to lead the nation during Reconstruction? Do you think you would feel exactly the same about Lincoln had he lived through two full terms? Thank you, David.

Yes, I would feel exactly the same. Lincoln always did the best he could under all circumstances. Sometimes, there are no good choices from which to choose.

Previously, I expressed my opinion that if the Congress and the cabinet had followed Lincoln's recommendation that the slave owners of the South should be compensated for their lost property in the form of slaves, things might have been quite different. Cotton was still "King as a cash crop" and the world's demand remained great for that commodity. But there was no money now in the South to hire black laborers emancipated by Lincoln's Proclamation. What evolved were the black laws where poor blacks were arrested for violation of local vagrancy laws and then hired out to plantation owners and others businesses for the costs of their being jailed and supervised in their labors (just another form of alternative slavery).

President Lincoln may have been able to persuade and convince Congress to expend the millions of dollars for this previously rejected purpose, and increasing the national debt, to revive permanently the economy in the South in a fair manner. [When we talk now about the National Debt, we are talking about it in terms of trillions of dollars.] Now, we have all of the automobile and other manufacturing plants in the South, with blacks and whites both paid the same hourly wages. It could have started with the cotton economy and evolved fairly thereafter to the same end . . . if President Lincoln had lived.

But this nation lived through the alternatives forced upon it: black laws, Jim Crow, KKK, and mass black migration to the North for factory jobs.

I thought of something additional: As a condition of funding, President Lincoln might have imposed the additional legislative condition that the individual plantation owner must provide suitable family housing for the former slaves and offer quality public education to the children (and the adults who want to learn in the evenings).

[Gene C]

(10-08-2023 02:13 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Forgetting for a moment that it's been 40 years since I read the book, why would it matter if Hendrick discussed or did not discuss any of Lincoln's foibles?
I think a strong argument could be made that Lincoln made deep errors in his cabinet selections. I can't think of anyone who believes Simon Cameron was a great choice. Maybe Lincoln was impressed by the fact that he believed Cameron wouldn't steal a hot stove.

Also, Salmon Chase was a poor choice. I don't believe for a moment that no one else in Washington could run the Treasury Department. Chase was not a loyal cabinet member and did what he could to undermine his boss, which is not a great resume bullet point.

I was looking forward to your opinion of this book,
As I recall Lincoln selected many of his cabinet members because he needed their knowledge and political influence if the country went to war. From his political and financial contacts Chase was a good selection, he was just too full of himself (and Lincoln tolerated it for a time). Lincoln felt his good features outweighed his lesser qualities since he appointed him to the supreme court. If Cameron hadn't been such a crook so that he was shipped of to Russia, we might have never purchased Alaska.

So can you remember anything about the book - Lincoln's War Cabinet?
Is there, in your opinion, a better book about Lincoln's cabinet?

[Rob Wick]

Quote:I was looking forward to your opinion of this book,
As I recall Lincoln selected many of his cabinet members because he needed their knowledge and political influence if the country went to war. From his political and financial contacts Chase was a good selection, he was just too full of himself (and Lincoln tolerated it for a time). Lincoln felt his good features outweighed his lesser qualities since he appointed him to the supreme court. If Cameron hadn't been such a crook so that he was shipped of to Russia, we might have never purchased Alaska.

So can you remember anything about the book - Lincoln's War Cabinet?
Is there, in your opinion, a better book about Lincoln's cabinet?

Gene,

Chase may very well have been a good selection, but he wasn't the best, especially after he proved that he wasn't loyal to Lincoln. A good test would be to compare his tenure with that of William Pitt Fessenden, the Senate Finance Committee chair Lincoln appointed to replace Chase. I cannot do so because I only have a Wikipedia-level knowledge of him. As for his appointment to the court, again, I can't comment on that other than it's apples and oranges. Being fit for the court is far from being a good choice for the cabinet, especially in the midst of a civil war.

While I am not an expert on this, I think Seward played a larger role in getting Alaska than Cameron. I think Lincoln likely acceded to allowing Cameron to serve on the cabinet because of the promises made by his managers when he was seeking the Republican nomination. However, Lincoln had the final say. Therefore, he could have held firm on his often-stated demand that no political deals be made in his name.

The only books I am familiar with on Lincoln's cabinet are Hendrick's and Doris Kearns Goodwin's books. While I liked Goodwin's book, I think Hendrick does a better job of explaining the factors that Lincoln faced in choosing a cabinet. I have no problem recommending either, but if forced to choose, I would say, Hendrick, mainly due to personal preference. Obviously, Goodwin's book is more readily available.

I have Hendrick's book in my library, but the chances of me reading it again are pretty slim, given everything I'm working on now. As I stated in an earlier post, the one thing that stood out to me was Lincoln's cry that if Jesus was choosing the twelve apostles, the "shriek of locality" would once again rise up (meaning that Lincoln was often told that he had to have a cabinet balanced by locality throughout the country in order to satisfy all political factions).

Best
Rob

[RJNorton]

David, thank you very much for replying.

I would ask one more question. Where you say, "Yes, I would feel exactly the same. Lincoln always did the best he could under all circumstances. Sometimes, there are no good choices from which to choose" I would wonder...isn't this the same or similar to what other war-time Presidents faced? Several names come to mind such as Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Lyndon Johnson.

Please do not get me wrong...like you I think Lincoln is special. How someone who grew up (especially the Kentucky and Indiana years) like Lincoln did and eventually became President of the United States is almost beyond belief. That alone makes his entire life interesting to me...even the most minor stories, etc.

[David Lockmiller]

(10-08-2023 07:05 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  David, thank you very much for replying.

I would ask one more question. Where you say, "Yes, I would feel exactly the same. Lincoln always did the best he could under all circumstances. Sometimes, there are no good choices from which to choose" I would wonder...isn't this the same or similar to what other war-time Presidents faced? Several names come to mind such as Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Lyndon Johnson.

Please do not get me wrong...like you I think Lincoln is special. How someone who grew up (especially the Kentucky and Indiana years) like Lincoln did and eventually became President of the United States is almost beyond belief. That alone makes his entire life interesting to me...even the most minor stories, etc.

Each president is an individual. Only one was President Abraham Lincoln. Franklin Delano Roosevelt came close in presidential abilities and to the magnitude of difficulities which Lincoln faced.