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L Verge · 10-30-2012, 08:02 AM

Thanks, John. Hope you fared the storm well; your section of the Northern Neck seems to get slammed by storms pretty hard.

Was the port Aquia? Was the station Brooke or Burke, Virginia? My great-uncle was killed in the fighting around the Weldon Railroad. The family never knew his fate until the 1980s, when James O. Hall and John C. Brennan found the information. We still don't know where he's buried.

Gene, Do look up Benjamin Franklin Stringfellow. He's one interesting character - another John S. Mosby and also from Virginia. I just know the basics about his exploits, but one source said that some Yankees considered him the dangerous man in the Confederacy. He has been described as a very small man and reminded me of another Confederate from Maryland who was tiny and pulled off a raid on Union ships dressed as The French Lady. His name was Richard Thomas Zarvona.

There used to be an SCV camp in Virginia named for Stringfellow. He and his wife are buried in Alexandria, Virginia. Zarvona is buried in Chaptico, Maryland. It's side characters like these that make the CW even more interesting.

Peter Taltavul · 11-12-2012, 05:52 PM

(10-22-2012 12:06 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I tend to agree with Joe on this one about the revolvers being secreted on Booth's person, and the boot theory sounds good - has anyone inspected the boot at Ford's to see if there are pockets? I also agree that the Deringer was all Booth needed or intended to use in the presidential box. This wasn't supposed to be the shootout at the OK Corral. Walk in, hit your target, and exit. Use the pistols when bigger guns come riding after you -- and that wouldn't happen until farther down the road.

Question on the boots: Was it possible for Booth to have the legs of his trousers on the outside, over the boots? He would be "attending" a formal theatre setting with the President and First Lady in attendance. I would think that he would be dressed for that part, in top hat and more formal looking attire than trousers stuffed into the boots. That would mean discarding or losing the top hat at some point and still having a head covering. If he knew he wouldn't need the pistols, he could afford to have his pants legs over the boots that were hiding the heavier weapons. Does that make sense?

Just a note that Joe Beckert is a retired law enforcement officer who wore guns every day for 25 years. I'm not saying he's 100% correct, but I do trust his judgment call on this - even though I still think the pistols were picked up down the road and likely at Dr. Mudd's!

JMadonna · 11-12-2012, 06:07 PM

Guns need holsters to keep them secured and that isn't always the case. More than one law enforcement officer told me that sometimes their guns have come out of their holsters just by getting up out of a chair.

Highly doubtful Booth could have kept 2 guns secured during a ten foot jump to the stage.

Peter Taltavul · 11-12-2012, 06:38 PM

(11-12-2012 05:52 PM)Peter Taltavul Wrote:
(10-22-2012 12:06 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I tend to agree with Joe on this one about the revolvers being secreted on Booth's person, and the boot theory sounds good - has anyone inspected the boot at Ford's to see if there are pockets? I also agree that the Deringer was all Booth needed or intended to use in the presidential box. This wasn't supposed to be the shootout at the OK Corral. Walk in, hit your target, and exit. Use the pistols when bigger guns come riding after you -- and that wouldn't happen until farther down the road.

Question on the boots: Was it possible for Booth to have the legs of his trousers on the outside, over the boots? He would be "attending" a formal theatre setting with the President and First Lady in attendance. I would think that he would be dressed for that part, in top hat and more formal looking attire than trousers stuffed into the boots. That would mean discarding or losing the top hat at some point and still having a head covering. If he knew he wouldn't need the pistols, he could afford to have his pants legs over the boots that were hiding the heavier weapons. Does that make sense?

Just a note that Joe Beckert is a retired law enforcement officer who wore guns every day for 25 years. I'm not saying he's 100% correct, but I do trust his judgment call on this - even though I still think the pistols were picked up down the road and likely at Dr. Mudd's!

I am the amateur of the amateurs re: this subject. But here are few few simple thoughts.

I seem to recall that Gen. Grant and wife were expected to attend the theatre with the President and Mrs. Lincoln that night and that it was not till mid afternoon that the offer was declined. John Ford had even expanded the Presidential box to make room for the guests. Sometime that Friday JWBD has prepared a brace so that he could block others from gaining entrance to the box when he closed it behind him. And if he indeed worked at cutting a small hole in the door to be able to view the President before he entered the box he would have seen that the seating arrangement has been expanded. I do not know whether Booth knew that Grant was expected to accompany the President or not. Somewhere in the back of mind I think that I read that JWB rode alongside a carriage containing Gen. Grant and wife as they were leaving Washington that Friday and peered inside. Regardless - it would be important to know who would be with the President that night for the obvious reason. Perhaps a lookout as the Lincoln's and guests arrived.

My point is that even though the President was Booth's target wouldn't he have been prepared to encounter any obstacle that would thwart his escape? The single shot derringer would do the job for his ultimate purpose, but only relying upon a knife - even to make the short way from the box, across the stage and to the back door - seems a little ill prepared to me. Of course the events happened very fast. I do not even know if Rathbone was armed that night, but if he was the speed and surprise of the attack surely caught him by surprise. And as another mentioned in a previous post whay not use a revolver for the deed?

Please accept my elementary thoughts on this subject. I await to be educated by those much more knowledgable than me. ...Mark

Jim Garrett · 11-12-2012, 07:23 PM

I think JWB had it all planned pretty darn well. He was successful in the assassination and escape from the theatre and the city. It was that pesky detail of the broken leg. Sad

Peter Taltavul · 11-12-2012, 09:24 PM

(11-12-2012 07:23 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: I think JWB had it all planned pretty darn well. He was successful in the assassination and escape from the theatre and the city. It was that pesky detail of the broken leg.

Yes. Jim. Unfortunately successful. But not knowing for sure what obstacles that he would encounter to escape the theatre - or perhaps even what potential fight would ensue in the Presidential box - I continue to be bothered by a single shot derringer. I keep asking myself why? Let us say that is he would have chosen an alternative weapon the President would have still been shot and Rathbone could have been dispatched in short order. No struggle to exit the box - perhaps no broken leg. Was he that sure of himself?

It would appear that a he was willing to scare or even inflict injury upon others while he attempted to escape the theatre - Harry Hawk etc.

On another note was it whiskey and water, or brandy and water and Taltuval's saloon? Perhaps it makes no difference except for historical accuracy ...M

HerbS · 11-12-2012, 09:54 PM

Peter,I like your"out of the box"Thinking!

Rsmyth · 11-12-2012, 10:07 PM

I think the bartender said Booth usually drank brandy but that night he ordered whiskey.

John Stanton · (This post was last modified: 11-13-2012 01:39 AM by John Stanton.)

Gene C. The St Albans Raiders, is a must read for you. They fared very well in Canada, #1 Canada kept them from being extradited to the US for trial (sure death).#2 Canada freed them all, and gave tham back the money that they stole #3 Canada paid the Banks to keep the good will of the people in VT.#4 The US was lucky that Canada didn't go to war with the US - for arresting the Raiders IN CANADA. CANADA saved the Raiders
Laurie. AQUIA was the port. The names I used were the Developments that are there now. BROOKE Station is down here near Stafford. BURKE Station is up very close to Washington. ("A bedroom Community")
Bill. Surratt and Slater were not "near the border with Canada" in the RRStation until April 18 +/-, She dressed as a" little man". (Sarah was less than 5' -0" tall.) They were on their return from Elmira, I can't see how Surratt could have been involved with any attempt to help Booth. Am I resding you right?

Gene. Reply to #116. There were people here in VA, waiting to assist Booth when he had Lincoln with him. But , that all fell apart when the plan changed. IMO Booth's stay in the Berry-Bushes, was because Jones could not find any one here to accept him and get him back in the hands of the Secret Line. When Jones put the pair in the boat, he was sending them to a place, not to someone.. Jones said "Wait there" (the bridge over the Gambo), if no one shows up, "then go to Mrs Q, I think she will help you". If I were running for my life, I would want better instructions than that.
The one guy we know was here to meet him was Benjamin Arnold.
He has been quoted as saying something like "I was supposed to escort Lincoln to Richmond. The assassination saved me from doing it". (Arnold worked with Cawood at his Camp.)

Jim Garrett · 11-13-2012, 06:01 AM

(11-12-2012 10:07 PM)Rsmyth Wrote: I think the bartender said Booth usually drank brandy but that night he ordered whiskey.

Rich, you are correct. According to Peter's testimony, JWB usually drank brandy. That night he had whiskey. He apparently knocked the first one back very quickly and had a second. Peter was getting water, because JWB usually had water with his drink, and when he went back JWB was already gone.

My best guess is Booth didn't want a revolver on him: 1) the weight. 2) walking in with a gun and gunbelt may draw undue attention.

Booth's #1 objective was to get to the President and shoot him. If he was noticed with a gunbelt and revolver, he may have been questioned by someone. If Parker or another had HAD been at their post, and questioned JWB and noticed the bulge of a pistil in a holster under the coat, he may not have been successful.

Booth was a bold actor and a bold man. His plan was to get to the Presiddent as unobtrusively as possible, and if he escaped, so much the better.

RJNorton · 11-13-2012, 07:37 AM

(11-12-2012 06:38 PM)Peter Taltavul Wrote: I do not know whether Booth knew that Grant was expected to accompany the President or not. Somewhere in the back of mind I think that I read that JWB rode alongside a carriage containing Gen. Grant and wife as they were leaving Washington that Friday and peered inside.

Mark, your memory is correct. In her memoirs, Julia Grant claimed at lunch she was disturbed by a man "with a wild look." He sat near her table and stared at her. She felt he was trying to overhear her conversation with her young son, Jesse. Julia claimed positively that the man indeed was Booth.

Then later, when the Grants were going to the train station, Julia wrote that, "This same dark, pale man rode past us at a sweeping gallop on a dark horse - black, I think. He rode twenty yards ahead of us, wheeled and returned, and as he passed us both going and returning, he thrust his face quite near the General's and glared in a disagreeable manner.' Mrs. Ruckner said, 'General, everyone wants to see you.' Grant replied, 'Yes, but I do not care for such glances. They are not friendly.' "

Assuming this was indeed Booth then he probably knew the Grants were not attending the play with the Lincolns.

Just as an aside, in his confession of July 6, 1865, George Atzerodt stated, "Booth told me that Surratt was to help at the box, that he expected others in the box." Of course, if Surratt were in Elmira, then either Booth or Atzerodt was lying.

When first entering the theater, and standing at the rear, is the line of sight good enough that Booth could tell how many people were in the State Box?

Jim Garrett · 11-13-2012, 07:56 AM

(11-13-2012 07:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(11-12-2012 06:38 PM)Peter Taltavul Wrote: I do not know whether Booth knew that Grant was expected to accompany the President or not. Somewhere in the back of mind I think that I read that JWB rode alongside a carriage containing Gen. Grant and wife as they were leaving Washington that Friday and peered inside.

Mark, your memory is correct. In her memoirs, Julia Grant claimed at lunch she was disturbed by a man "with a wild look." He sat near her table and stared at her. She felt he was trying to overhear her conversation with her young son, Jesse. Julia claimed positively that the man indeed was Booth.

Then later, when the Grants were going to the train station, Julia wrote that, "This same dark, pale man rode past us at a sweeping gallop on a dark horse - black, I think. He rode twenty yards ahead of us, wheeled and returned, and as he passed us both going and returning, he thrust his face quite near the General's and glared in a disagreeable manner.' Mrs. Ruckner said, 'General, everyone wants to see you.' Grant replied, 'Yes, but I do not care for such glances. They are not friendly.' "

Assuming this was indeed Booth then he probably knew the Grants were not attending the play with the Lincolns.

Just as an aside, in his confession of July 6, 1865, George Atzerodt stated, "Booth told me that Surratt was to help at the box, that he expected others in the box." Of course, if Surratt were in Elmira, then either Booth or Atzerodt was lying.

When first entering the theater, and standing at the rear, is the line of sight good enough that Booth could tell how many people were in the State Box?

The theatre is small and the box is very visible from the opposite side of the stage. Booth entered throught the back door. He would have a pretty clear view of the box from the wings and been able to determine how many people were in the box.

JMadonna · 11-13-2012, 08:21 AM

(11-13-2012 07:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Just as an aside, in his confession of July 6, 1865, George Atzerodt stated, "Booth told me that Surratt was to help at the box, that he expected others in the box." Of course, if Surratt were in Elmira, then either Booth or Atzerodt was lying.

Booth was putting his plan into action and was protecting it with a bodyguard of lies. If he expected others to help him it would have to come from Spangler.

Booth's escape plan in the kidnapping plot was to have someone kill the theater lights. This was supposedly Spangler's job. When he didn't Booth covered it with his Latin ad-lib.

RJNorton · 11-13-2012, 08:53 AM

(11-13-2012 07:56 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote: The theatre is small and the box is very visible from the opposite side of the stage. Booth entered throught the back door. He would have a pretty clear view of the box from the wings and been able to determine how many people were in the box.

Thanks, Jim. I had been thinking of John Buckingham's statement. If memory serves me, I think Buckingham said Booth was outside/inside about 5 times before entering the theater for the final time. Then, after all of that, Booth started humming a tune and climbing the stairs. I was just wondering if Booth were trying to figure out how many folks were in the State Box with all his outside/inside movements in the c.10:07 P.M. time frame.

HerbS · 11-13-2012, 10:22 AM

Roger,I think you are correct about Booth and he felt he other Conspirator's support that night.That helps explain,"My Letter to Lincoln Theory"coming from Surratt-2-21-1865 from Dansville,NY-sender unknown.He was up here earlier scouting his escape route to Canada from Elmira.So,Surratt really thought Lincoln was to be kiddnaped,not assassinated.The "letter to Lincoln",sounded to some examiners, like a"Change of Heart Letter".My big question has always been,why did J.Holt keep that one letter in his collection?