Are those stories about Mary abusive to Abraham overstated???

[David Lockmiller]

(01-09-2020 09:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Quoting Professor Burlingame:

"The abuse didn't end once the Lincolns got to Washington."

"She would regularly — we have testimony from more than one source — she would insult him. She would berate him in front of other people, and say, 'That's the worst speech I've ever heard anybody give. I don't see how a man could get up in front of the public and speak such venal things," says Burlingame, who's readying a monograph on the Lincoln marriage. "And if she does that in front of other people, what does she do in the privacy of her own home? Or in this case, the White House?"

Does anyone know Burlingame's original source for Mary's comment on President Abraham Lincoln's speech?

https://history.howstuffworks.com/histor...incoln.htm

Does anyone know Burlingame's original source for Mary's comment on President Abraham Lincoln's speech?

From “The Inner World of Abraham Lincoln,” by Michael Burlingame, at page 281:

Mary Lincoln did not mellow with age; she continued to berate her husband in the White House. On February 22, 1864, while attending a Patent Office fair to benefit the Christian Commission, Lincoln was caught off guard by the crowd’s insistence that he make a speech. According to his friend Richard J. Oglesby, who had prevailed upon him to attend the meeting only by promising that he would not have to speak, Lincoln reluctantly acceded to the crowd’s importuning and delivered a few remarks. [footnote 105] Afterward, while the Lincolns and Oglesby awaited their carriage, Mary Lincoln allegedly said to her husband, “That was the worst speech I ever listened to in my life. How any man could get up and deliver such remarks to an audience is more that I can understand. I wanted the earth to sink and let me go through.” The President did not reply; in fact, during the ride home, no further words were spoken by Oglesby or the Lincolns. [footnote 106]

footnote 105: Basler, CWL, 7: 197-98.

footnote 106: Sandburg and Angle, “Mary Lincoln,” 110-12, citing “a responsible Illinois citizen” who had heard the story from Oglesby. Cf. Sidney Kramer, “Lincoln at the Fair,” Abraham Lincoln Quarterly 3 (June 1945): 340-43.

[Rob Wick]

I wonder if the "responsible Illinois citizen" might be Orville Hickman Browning?

Best
Rob

[Angela]

A fascinating discussion! As someone who has “met” Lincoln not in the traditional way, I’d like to add some thoughts.

I first came across the so called Mary-bashing through “Herndon’s Informants” and had a difficult time believing his statements and the comments he had collected. After buying a compilation of Mary’s letters, I felt that she was a very unlikable person. She was harsh in her judgments and at times even cruel. This made me rethink the Herndon papers.

Reading the Burlingame bio, a lot of his evaluations rang true and as a woman, I feel that her personal comments in connection with the actions other people described, are quite in line.
Also, to play the devils advocate, I’d like to take a few comments that were made here and wonder how women would feel if men were to argue in the same way.

For example, it was mentioned that “It's wasn't her fault and her will to have those vulnerabilities” concerning her mental state. Would we forgive abusive behavior from a man by brushing the cruelties aside pointing to his “mental state”? Especially, if it is repeated over years with no apparent traumatization (looking at her younger years).

And another example – men talk about what it might have felt like for Lincoln to be abused like this and the question is raised “What do they know in the end about the Lincolns' feelings that allows them such destructive claims?” – would we talk about women discussing abuse the same way in return?
After all, behind every person discussing this, there might be another victim.

I have sifted through hundreds and thousands of pages of original sources concerning Mary – mostly because I wanted to find any evidence that she was behind her husband’s success.
I have yet to find any active supportive role she took other than being a good hostess at parties, as were many women during that time.

How her political interest did Lincoln’s career any good is still a mystery to me.
I only found evidence to the contrary (e.g. her dismissal of Seward) but during that time of reading travel I came across a woman who was very much normal and in control of herself for a long time, albeit a woman I would not wish to spend much time with.

[David Lockmiller]

I meant my initial post to be a reply to the following statement made by Angela in her post #18:"How her political interest did Lincoln’s career any good is still a mystery to me."

There may well have been a political argument made to Mr. Lincoln by Mary about separating himself from his political base that he had created in Illinois with Herndon, Judge Davis, and many of his fellow attorneys on the Eighth Circuit. This would all have been lost had Lincoln moved to Oregon. And, of course, there would have been no Lincoln-Douglas debates for Illinois Senator that made Lincoln a national figure on the issue of slavery. And, then there would have been no invitation to create his Cooper Union Address. ("For want of a shoe, the horse was lost, etc."). History to be made is not inevitable.

“Abraham Lincoln Once Declined Governorship of Oregon”
Subtitled: “Opportunity to Direct Territorial Government Is Refused at Wish of Mrs. Lincoln”
The Oregon Sunday Journal, February 11, 1912, Portland - by Rowland R. Gittings,

The outlook promised nothing for Lincoln or his party in the lower house [of Congress]. As for the Senate, the prospect was no better for the party, while as for Lincoln himself senatorial ambitions would have seemed, in 1849, premature even with his party in power. Yet he seemed scarcely content to resume at once his law practice, although he had in it achieved notable success. Besides, the lure of Washington City was upon him. He was not blinded, but he was charmed. Hence, in the last days of his term he submitted himself to the incoming administration, that of Taylor, as an applicant for the commissionership of the general land office. For this position he had special fitness, to be sure, but inasmuch as no distinction whatever could come to any incumbent, it is easy to agree with his biographers, who exult in Lincoln’s escape from “the greatest danger that ever threatened him,” when one Justin Butterfield of Chicago, being either less scrupulous or more ambitious, ran under the plum and caught it falling.

Following his failure to obtain this commissionership, Lincoln was offered the governorship of Oregon territory, to succeed General Joseph Lane, who was, of course, about to be removed for reasons purely political. In one sense, the place was probably tendered as a sort of consolation prize; on the other hand, Oregon’s material potentialities were well recognized by the well informed, while those who saw far politically discerned possibilities not at all despicable, no matter how ill-defined at that day. Friends of Lincoln advised him to accept the Oregon tender, reasoning that the territory must, in a few years, achieve statehood, and that a seat in the senate of the United States might most reasonably be expected at the hands of the Oregonians. This consideration appealed to Lincoln himself, and doubtless he would have placed himself at the disposal of the administration. But Mrs. Lincoln was loath to undergo the long journey to Oregon and the discomforts of life on the farthest frontier. And so the name Abraham Lincoln was never sent to the senate. [End of quotation from newspaper article.]

Personal note: If Lincoln had accepted the “Oregon Opportunity,” he would not have been President of the United States at the beginning of the Civil War. Lincoln’s base of political support was in Illinois, when Illinois was still on the western edge of civilization.

[RJNorton]

Thanks, David, for finding the source of Mary Lincoln's comment. Generally speaking, I do not think Lincoln was good at extemporaneous speeches. IMO, he preferred having the time to prepare his speeches. If the story is true, Mary L. was critical of him for something he was often not good at in the first place.

Here is the text of what the Collected Works has for the speech:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Remarks at Opening of Patent Office Fair [1]

February 22, 1864

Loud calls being made then for the President, Mr. Lincoln stepped forward, and said that he appeared before the audience to apologize for not speaking rather than to speak.

He thought that the Committee had practiced a little fraud on him, for they did not intimate when they came to see him in the morning, that they expected him to speak, therefore he had come before the audience totally unprepared to say anything; that was taking one at great disadvantage after the eloquent speech of Mr. Chittenden and the poem of Mr. French.

There was great objection to his saying anything, for necessarily, in consequence of his position, everything went into print. [Laughter and applause.] If he made any mistake it might do both himself and the nation harm. [Applause.] It was very difficult to say sensible things. [Laughter.] He therefore hoped that the audience would excuse him after expressing his desire that the charitable enterprise in which we were engaged might be abundantly successful. [Applause.]

Annotation
[1] New York Tribune, February 24, 1864. Lincoln's remarks followed a speech by Lucius E. Chittenden and a patriotic poem read by Benjamin B. French.

[AussieMick]

I'd love to know Mary Lincoln's opinion of Herndon. He was an alcoholic and , as such, must have been a liability as Lincoln's partner in the Law firm. Mary, I'm sure, must have made sure that Herndon was aware of her assessment of his qualities as a human being ... the result would have been that he was unlikely to praise her qualities.

[Rob Wick]

Mike,

I would recommend this article by Douglas Wilson from the Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association. It's one of the best articles on their battle that I've read.

Best
Rob

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/262986...w=fulltext

[Eva Elisabeth]

Sorry - preparing for an important exam, so just quickly - Rob and David, there's nothing wrong with Ida Tarbell then that I think times, views and tolerance on lifestyles have changed a lot since her days.

[Mylye2222]

(01-09-2020 09:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Quoting Professor Burlingame:

"The abuse didn't end once the Lincolns got to Washington."

"She would regularly — we have testimony from more than one source — she would insult him. She would berate him in front of other people, and say, 'That's the worst speech I've ever heard anybody give. I don't see how a man could get up in front of the public and speak such venal things," says Burlingame, who's readying a monograph on the Lincoln marriage. "And if she does that in front of other people, what does she do in the privacy of her own home? Or in this case, the White House?"

Does anyone know Burlingame's original source for Mary's comment on Abraham Lincoln's speech?

https://history.howstuffworks.com/histor...incoln.htm

About the fact" And if she does that in front of other people, what does she do in the privacy of her own home? Or in this case, the White House?"

It can be understood in various ways.
1)One can think Mary was what we would called today" a perverse "which I don't believe.
2)The fact she came out of her mind in public is more to fit with rather psychological issues than true perversion. As I stated above, perverses never lose control in public, they play a role, in the case of spousal abuse, the" perfect husband /wife ".

Yes, it would be interesting knowing the original sources.
Maybe people attending the event?

[Mylye2222]

(01-09-2020 12:16 PM)Angela Wrote:  A fascinating discussion! As someone who has “met” Lincoln not in the traditional way, I’d like to add some thoughts.

I first came across the so called Mary-bashing through “Herndon’s Informants” and had a difficult time believing his statements and the comments he had collected. After buying a compilation of Mary’s letters, I felt that she was a very unlikable person. She was harsh in her judgments and at times even cruel. This made me rethink the Herndon papers.

Reading the Burlingame bio, a lot of his evaluations rang true and as a woman, I feel that her personal comments in connection with the actions other people described, are quite in line.
Also, to play the devils advocate, I’d like to take a few comments that were made here and wonder how women would feel if men were to argue in the same way.

For example, it was mentioned that “It's wasn't her fault and her will to have those vulnerabilities” concerning her mental state. Would we forgive abusive behavior from a man by brushing the cruelties aside pointing to his “mental state”? Especially, if it is repeated over years with no apparent traumatization (looking at her younger years).

And another example – men talk about what it might have felt like for Lincoln to be abused like this and the question is raised “What do they know in the end about the Lincolns' feelings that allows them such destructive claims?” – would we talk about women discussing abuse the same way in return?
After all, behind every person discussing this, there might be another victim.

I have sifted through hundreds and thousands of pages of original sources concerning Mary – mostly because I wanted to find any evidence that she was behind her husband’s success.
I have yet to find any active supportive role she took other than being a good hostess at parties, as were many women during that time.

How her political interest did Lincoln’s career any good is still a mystery to me.
I only found evidence to the contrary (e.g. her dismissal of Seward) but during that time of reading travel I came across a woman who was very much normal and in control of herself for a long time, albeit a woman I would not wish to spend much time with.

Look, looking at someone's vulnerabilities, especially relevant in MTLs case, isn't giving a pass. It's comprehensive. Yes, MTL was undoubtedly someone's difficult to live with. Sources blame AL. But being distant and often away is a lesser crime than abuse and harassment. Mary was also a very complex person. Yes she could be really nasty, but sometimes could be loving and compassionate, as when she visited the sick and the wounded.

[David Lockmiller]

(01-09-2020 03:57 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is the text of what the Collected Works has for the speech:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Remarks at Opening of Patent Office Fair [1]

February 22, 1864

Loud calls being made then for the President, Mr. Lincoln stepped forward, and said that he appeared before the audience to apologize for not speaking rather than to speak.

He thought that the Committee had practiced a little fraud on him, for they did not intimate when they came to see him in the morning, that they expected him to speak, therefore he had come before the audience totally unprepared to say anything; that was taking one at great disadvantage after the eloquent speech of Mr. Chittenden and the poem of Mr. French.

There was great objection to his saying anything, for necessarily, in consequence of his position, everything went into print. [Laughter and applause.] If he made any mistake it might do both himself and the nation harm. [Applause.] It was very difficult to say sensible things. [Laughter.] He therefore hoped that the audience would excuse him after expressing his desire that the charitable enterprise in which we were engaged might be abundantly successful. [Applause.]

Annotation
[1] New York Tribune, February 24, 1864. Lincoln's remarks followed a speech by Lucius E. Chittenden and a patriotic poem read by Benjamin B. French.

Many thanks, Roger, for posting the actual speech. I thought it to be masterful.

Under the circumstances, I do not believe that President Lincoln could have made a better speech, and yet be more informative as to his valid "political" reasons for not attempting to make a different extemporaneous speech.

By the reaction of the audience (in brackets), it would appear that the audience, other than Mary, understood his reasoning.

It most certainly calls into question how "politically astute" Mary Lincoln really was.

[Mylye2222]

(01-10-2020 12:18 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(01-09-2020 03:57 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is the text of what the Collected Works has for the speech:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Remarks at Opening of Patent Office Fair [1]

February 22, 1864

Loud calls being made then for the President, Mr. Lincoln stepped forward, and said that he appeared before the audience to apologize for not speaking rather than to speak.

He thought that the Committee had practiced a little fraud on him, for they did not intimate when they came to see him in the morning, that they expected him to speak, therefore he had come before the audience totally unprepared to say anything; that was taking one at great disadvantage after the eloquent speech of Mr. Chittenden and the poem of Mr. French.

There was great objection to his saying anything, for necessarily, in consequence of his position, everything went into print. [Laughter and applause.] If he made any mistake it might do both himself and the nation harm. [Applause.] It was very difficult to say sensible things. [Laughter.] He therefore hoped that the audience would excuse him after expressing his desire that the charitable enterprise in which we were engaged might be abundantly successful. [Applause.]

Annotation
[1] New York Tribune, February 24, 1864. Lincoln's remarks followed a speech by Lucius E. Chittenden and a patriotic poem read by Benjamin B. French.

Many thanks, Roger, for posting the actual speech. I thought it to be masterful.

Under the circumstances, I do not believe that President Lincoln could have made a better speech, and yet be more informative as to his valid "political" reasons for not attempting to make a different extemporaneous speech.

By the reaction of the audience (in brackets), it would appear that the audience, other than Mary, understood his reasoning.

It most certainly calls into question how "politically astute" Mary Lincoln really was.

She certainly was astute for some things, although not, in that case. Her husband is cheered and well received, but she finds something to complain for? It shows a weakness in her character there, she seems to be willing to control her husband's way of making speech. But let's take it humanly, Mary was what we call a "political junkie" in an era where ladies were supposed to stay in the limits of what was expected for a woman, being a good wife, a fine hostess and care of the household duties. She was a true convention breaker in that sense.

[David Lockmiller]

(01-11-2020 11:02 AM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  She certainly was astute for some things, although not, in that case. Her husband is cheered and well received, but she finds something to complain for? It shows a weakness in her character there, she seems to be willing to control her husband's way of making speech. But let's take it humanly, Mary was what we call a "political junkie" in an era where ladies were supposed to stay in the limits of what was expected for a woman, being a good wife, a fine hostess and care of the household duties. She was a true convention breaker in that sense.

The following is a story of another "true convention breaker in that sense" at the time Lincoln had been elected President of the United States. She also lived in Springfield at the time. The story appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine - Volume 40 - Page 318 - 1870:

There lived in Springfield an Irish day-laborer John McCarty, an intense Democrat. Some time after the Presidential election, Mr. Lincoln was walking along the public square, and John was shoveling out the gutter. As the President-elect approached, McCarty rested on his shovel, and holding out his hand, said bluntly:

"An' so yer elected President, are ye? Faith, and it wasn't by my vote at all!

"Well, yes, John," replied Mr. Lincoln, shaking hands cordially; "the papers say I am elected, but it seems odd I should be when you opposed me."

"Well, Mr. Lincoln," said John, dropping his voice lest some brother Democrat should hear the confession, "I'm glad you got it, after all. It's mighty little peace I've had wid Biddy for vothin' forninst ye; an' if ye'd bin bate she'd ha' driv me from the shanty, as shure's the worrold."

Give my compliments to Biddy, John, and tell her I'll think seriously of woman's suffrage," said Mr. Lincoln with a smile, as he passed on to his office.

[Mylye2222]

(01-11-2020 12:20 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(01-11-2020 11:02 AM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  She certainly was astute for some things, although not, in that case. Her husband is cheered and well received, but she finds something to complain for? It shows a weakness in her character there, she seems to be willing to control her husband's way of making speech. But let's take it humanly, Mary was what we call a "political junkie" in an era where ladies were supposed to stay in the limits of what was expected for a woman, being a good wife, a fine hostess and care of the household duties. She was a true convention breaker in that sense.

The following is a story of another "true convention breaker in that sense" at the time Lincoln had been elected President of the United States. She also lived in Springfield at the time. The story appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine - Volume 40 - Page 318 - 1870:

There lived in Springfield an Irish day-laborer John McCarty, an intense Democrat. Some time after the Presidential election, Mr. Lincoln was walking along the public square, and John was shoveling out the gutter. As the President-elect approached, McCarty rested on his shovel. and holding out his hand, said bluntly:

"An' so yer elected President, are ye? Faith, and it wasn't by my vote at all!

"Well, yes, John," replied Mr. Lincoln, shaking hands cordially; "the papers say I am elected, but it seems odd I should be when you opposed me."

"Well, Mr. Lincoln," said John, dropping his voice lest some brother Democrat should hear the confession, "I'm glad you got it, after all. It's mighty little peace I've had wid Biddy for vothin' forninst ye; an' if ye'd bin bate she'd ha' driv me from the shanty, as shure's the worrold."

Give my compliments to Biddy, John, and tell her I'll think seriously of woman's suffrage," said Mr. Lincoln with a smile, as he passed on to his office.

Thank you David for this nice story!
So it would be the second time Lincoln would have spoken about extending suffrage to women!! The first was when he was in the Congress, when he offered a bill proposing suffrage to all white population who paid taxes, including women. Yes, conventional breaking all the way!
And look how Abraham Lincoln acted with his children. At the time a father was supposed to harbor discipline and emotion distance. Lincoln was almost a modern day father in his parenting style. Springfield people may have gossiped around, but it didn't stopped him for playing with his kids, even at times helping Mary at home.

[RJNorton]

I am still very curious about the story of Mary's criticism of the President's speech. According to Lincoln Day-by-Day, the story of Mary's negative comment was carried the very next day, February 23, 1864, in the Washington Star. How in the world did it get into a newspaper? Can anyone possibly post the article from the February 23, 1864, edition of the Washington Star?