Best Generals in US History?

[Gene C]

I can understand Johnson being a little slow to answer the door late at night. As someone who frequently falls asleep in front of the TV or while reading a book, it
takes me ZZZZzzzz......while to wake back up to got to bed. (If George was supposed to kill Johnson, do you think Booth or George would want a female there to witness the murder....the gunshot would be quite loud, and so would "the visitor's" scream. - I just don't see it happening that way) As popular as Johnsone was, information regarding a "lady of the evening" visiting Johnson that night would certainly have come out during the impeachment hearings.

Do we know how Johnson was dressed when the govenor came to his door and woke him up? Had anyone "in the know" indicated that Johnson was not alone when Gov Farwell came to the door?

Also...with the war over, I thought they discontinued issuing passes, but if not they were not that difficult to get.

[JMadonna]

(10-14-2012 07:32 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I can understand Johnson being a little slow to answer the door late at night. As someone who frequently falls asleep in front of the TV or while reading a book, it
takes me ZZZZzzzz......while to wake back up to got to bed. (If George was supposed to kill Johnson, do you think Booth or George would want a female there to witness the murder....the gunshot would be quite loud, and so would "the visitor's" scream. - I just don't see it happening that way) As popular as Johnsone was, information regarding a "lady of the evening" visiting Johnson that night would certainly have come out during the impeachment hearings.

Do we know how Johnson was dressed when the govenor came to his door and woke him up? Had anyone "in the know" indicated that Johnson was not alone when Gov Farwell came to the door?

Also...with the war over, I thought they discontinued issuing passes, but if not they were not that difficult to get.

First of all, Johnson was a notorious night owl and for him to be in bed at 9:30 in the evening when the rest of Washington was partying and drinks flowing is highly unusual behavior for him.

Secondly, Ella's job was to keep the door unlocked for Johnson's assassin. Booth didn't care what happened to the assassin or Ella after the trigger was pulled.

Thirdly, sexual dalliances in Washington were never talked about in Washington until the 1980s. Since it was so prevalent all were obliged to look the other way.

Lastly, passes were not discontinued. Lincoln wrote one himself just before he went to the theater that night. To cross the Navy Yard Bridge you needed one from a political "higher authority".

[Gene C]

I'm not sure I agree with you, I'm still skeptical, but you've made some good points. I'll have to read your book and give it some thought.

[JMadonna]

(10-14-2012 08:41 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I'm not sure I agree with you, I'm still skeptical, but you've made some good points. I'll have to read your book and give it some thought.

Sounds good to me. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

[Laurie Verge]

I'm too lazy to look this up: Had Mrs. Johnson and the children come to Washington for the inauguration in March? Out of five children, four were still alive in 1864. Mrs. Johnson suffered from tuberculosis and was pretty much a recluse, but Johnson asked his two daughters to serve in a social capacity at the White House during his presidency. It is my understanding that all four children plus one husband lived in the Executive Mansion.

I have also seen references to his family being mortified by his behavior and the subsequent gossip following the inauguration.

What I'm leading to is: On April 14, 1865, where was his family? Was there a suite of rooms at the Kirkwood that was occupied by the vice presidential family? Would Ella have been entertaining the vice president if his family was nearby?

[JMadonna]

(10-15-2012 08:45 AM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  I'm too lazy to look this up: Had Mrs. Johnson and the children come to Washington for the inauguration in March? Out of five children, four were still alive in 1864. Mrs. Johnson suffered from tuberculosis and was pretty much a recluse, but Johnson asked his two daughters to serve in a social capacity at the White House during his presidency. It is my understanding that all four children plus one husband lived in the Executive Mansion.

I have also seen references to his family being mortified by his behavior and the subsequent gossip following the inauguration.

What I'm leading to is: On April 14, 1865, where was his family? Was there a suite of rooms at the Kirkwood that was occupied by the vice presidential family? Would Ella have been entertaining the vice president if his family was nearby?

The sickly Mrs. Johnson was in her bed in Tennessee and did not come to the capitol until weeks after Johnson became President.

It was well known that while president, women of Ella's occupation were 'entertaining' Johnson within the White House to obtain pardons for Southern gentries. Trading sexual favors for his signature was just another day at the office for Johnson.

[Gene C]

I can remember reading similiar comments about Johnson's White House "visitors", but I never put much stock in it. The comments or quotes were usually made by someone who had a strong dislike for Johnson. My memory is fuzzy on the source of the comments. Any one else know?

[RJNorton]

This isn't the best answer or the most reliable source, but in the Johnson chapter of his book Through Five Administrations, William H. Crook wrote, "Johnson had an amiable weakness for women, particularly for pretty women. Those of us who were on duty in corridors and anterooms saw many evidences of this fact."

[HerbS]

Maybe Johnson was another JFKennedy or Bill Clinton! After seeing Jerry's theory "All Doors are Open" for thought and review! I think all of his family was back in Tenn.No interstates then and he had freedom to party,remember how drunk he was at the innaugaration?

[Laurie Verge]

With Mrs. Eliza Johnson, two sons, two daughters, and one son-in-law living in the White House, how did Andrew manage to hide his escapades? I know that JFK, Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton, and others have been accused of playing around; but they all had wives who were doing their own thing and traveling a lot.

These postings made me curious about Mrs. Andrew Johnson, so I did a little online research about her. This was one sharp lady who just happened to be hampered by tuberculosis. She didn't stay locked up in that second floor room like most authors claim. She was certainly not the equal to our modern First Ladies, but few of the 19th century were.

I found the best information on Eliza McCardle Johnson on the site for the National First Ladies Library in Canton, Ohio. I even found a trivia question that I am posting on that thread.

[JMadonna]

(10-15-2012 10:53 AM)Gene C Wrote:  I can remember reading similiar comments about Johnson's White House "visitors", but I never put much stock in it. The comments or quotes were usually made by someone who had a strong dislike for Johnson. My memory is fuzzy on the source of the comments. Any one else know?

Luther Baker working under Stanton exposed the whole "pardon ring" and named names. I've named other sources in my book. One hooker even tried to say he was the father of her child.

All politicians have enemies. The trick with Andrew Johnson is to find contemporaries that actually liked him.

[Laurie Verge]

From http://millercenter.org/president/Johnso...phy/print:

"Among historians, supporters of Johnson are few in recent years. However, from the 1870s to around the time of World War II, Johnson enjoyed high regard as a strong-willed President who took the courageous high ground in challenging Congress's unconstitutional usurpation of presidential authority. In this view, much out of vogue today, Johnson is seen to have been motivated by a strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution and by a firm belief in the separation of powers."

[JMadonna]

(10-15-2012 02:40 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  With Mrs. Eliza Johnson, two sons, two daughters, and one son-in-law living in the White House, how did Andrew manage to hide his escapades? I know that JFK, Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton, and others have been accused of playing around; but they all had wives who were doing their own thing and traveling a lot.

If you mean how did he manage to hide his escapades from his wife, I'm sure that he didn't. All the wives of the presidents you mentioned were sharp women and certainly knew what was going on. But what choice did they really have? They were locked in a gilded cage and leaving it was not really an option. So they chose to ignore it.

Everyone else in Washington would have ignored it too if it wasn't for Johnson's quid pro quo. Everyone wanted to know how and why he was granting all these pardons personally without input or background checks from the justice department. To avoid the heat he did what all politicians would do in that situation. He found a scapegoat. He blamed his son as responsible for the bimbo explosion in the White House.

Bad boy! - Is that the way we raised you?
The apple don't fall far from the tree....

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(10-15-2012 03:48 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  From http://millercenter.or/president/Johnson...phy/print:

"Among historians, supporters of Johnson are few in recent years. However, from the 1870s to around the time of World War II, Johnson enjoyed high regard as a strong-willed President who took the courageous high ground in challenging Congress's unconstitutional usurpation of presidential authority. In this view, much out of vogue today, Johnson is seen to have been motivated by a strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution and by a firm belief in the separation of powers."

That is correct Laurie. The historians at that time had a different slant, especially favoring the southern view; Lincoln was a tyrant, republicans were radicals, blacks were unfit for citizenship and Johnson stood up to all of them.

Johnson had political allies but I found it hard to find associates who extolled his personal qualities. He was an alcoholic and philanderer who was accidentally thrust into the White House raged at everybody.

[L Verge]

I was friends with the late-author, Gene Smith, who wrote American Gothic about the Booth family. He also wrote on Andrew Johnson. I never read his book, but I do recall that he was a tad sympathetic to the president in some conversations that we had.

[JMadonna]

(10-15-2012 05:22 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I was friends with the late-author, Gene Smith, who wrote American Gothic about the Booth family. He also wrote on Andrew Johnson. I never read his book, but I do recall that he was a tad sympathetic to the president in some conversations that we had.

Dang, I didn't know he died. I enjoyed his books.

One thing I found interesting about Johnson was how he prepared the ground for his impeachment. Bill Clinton used exactly the same techniques and even the same phrases that Johnson did.

Johnson had his 'johnson haters' just as Bill had 'clinton haters'. Johnson blamed all his problems on an out of control congress, as did Bill. Johnson demonized his accusers like Sumner and Stevens (even advocating that they be hanged), Bill demonized his 'white trash' women, Ken Starr and others.

To me it was lke deja-vu all over again.