Romanovs

[RJNorton]

Thanks to Laurie and Bob Cook for sending:

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July 17, 2018

Today marks the 100th anniversary of the execution of Nicholas II and his family, an event that toppled Russia’s Romanov dynasty. Yesterday, as the country was preparing to commemorate their deaths, Russian investigators announced that new DNA testing had confirmed that remains attributed to last tsar and his family are in fact authentic—a finding that may pave the way for the deceased royals to be buried with full rites by the Orthodox Church, according to Agence France-Presse.

The Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation, which is responsible for probing serious crimes, said DNA analysis “confirmed the remains found belonged to the former Emperor Nicholas II, his family members and members of their entourage.” As part of the new tests, investigators exhumed the body of Nicholas’ father, Alexander III to prove that the two are related, and also took DNA samples from living members of the Romanov family, according to the Moscow Times.

The new findings are the latest development in a tangled dispute over the remains of the Romanovs, whose downfall was nigh after Nicholas II was forced to abdicate the throne in the midst of the Russian Revolution of 1917. Radical Bolsheviks took power and formed a provisional government, and the tsar, his wife, Alexandra and their five children were imprisoned in the city of Yekaterinburg. In 1918, civil war broke out between the communist government’s Red Army and the anti-Bolshevik White Army. As the White Army advanced on Yekaterinburg, local authorities were ordered to prevent the rescue of the Romanovs, and in the early hours of July 17, the family was executed by firing squad. Those who remained alive after the bullets stopped flying were stabbed to death.

The Romanovs’ bodies were thrown down a mineshaft, only to be retrieved, burned and buried near a cart track. The remains of Nicholas, Alexandra and three of their daughters— Anastasia, Olga and Tatiana—were found in 1979, though the bodies were only exhumed in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, according to the AFP. As Tom Parfitt of the Times reports, DNA testing carried out at the time confirmed that the remains were authentic.

Orthodox Church officials, however, contested these findings. In 1998, the remains that had been uncovered some 20 years earlier were interred in Saint Petersburg, but the Church refused to give them full burial rites. In 2007, archaeologists discovered the bones of two more individuals, whom they believed to be the missing Romanov children: Maria and Alexei, the tsar’s only son and the heir to the throne.

“Their bones were also analyzed and scientists took the opportunity to repeat tests on the whole family using new technology,” Parfitt writes. “Evgeny Rogaev, a molecular geneticist, found there was one in a septillion chance that the remains thought to be of the tsar were not his.”

Still, the Church refused to recognize the remains. The bones of Maria and Alexei have never been buried.

Church officials explained their recalcitrance by saying that they need to be “extra sure” of the validity of the remains, since the tsar and his family were canonized in 2000, reports Alec Luhn of the Telegraph. This means that the Romanovs’ bones are relics—holy objects worthy of veneration.

But politics—and conspiracy theories—may have also come into play. The AFP reports that the Church clergy “felt sidelined” by an investigation into the remains that took place under former Russian president Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s. In 2015, the Church ordered yet another investigation, but critics have accused Church officials of stalling the proceedings because they are reluctant to admit their mistakes in handling the remains. Last year, for instance, a Church commission involved in the probe floated the anti-Semitic theory the Romanovs were killed as part of a Jewish ritual.

“There is absolutely no reason to examine these absurd theories about the deaths and the veracity of the remains when we know the circumstances, and scientists have proved beyond doubt they are real,” Viktor Aksyuchits, who fronted a state advisory group on the remains in the 1990s, tells the Times’ Parfitt.

The latest DNA analysis is part of the criminal investigation ordered by the Church. According to the AFP, Church spokesman Vladimir Legoida said in a statement that officials will review the latest findings “with attention.” The Romanovs may finally receive a full Church burial—though it will not come in time for the centenary of their deaths.

By Brigit Katz SMITHSONIAN.COM: July 17, 2018

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new...g3OTM2NAS2

[Steve]

Here's an article from a year ago that has more information on the church's dispute over the remains:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/opini...manov.html

[AussieMick]

Tourist trips to Russia are quite popular (not with me) and include Yekaterinburg. Of course tour guides have to mention the unfortunate Romanovs ( its not as if they can pretend it didnt happen).

Now I'm only giving a 2nd hand account here so bear with me. Friends of mine (who dont know much about the history) went on the tour. (from what I gather) They were told by the guide a most peculiar sanitised version of the killings. It was if the communists that did the shooting really didnt want to kill the Romanovs ... it was really most unfortunate and involved the reluctant soldiers being selected to be in the killing group by drawing straws, and the Romanovs were painlessly shot in the back of the head.

[L Verge]

(07-18-2018 07:52 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  Tourist trips to Russia are quite popular (not with me) and include Yekaterinburg. Of course tour guides have to mention the unfortunate Romanovs ( its not as if they can pretend it didnt happen).

Now I'm only giving a 2nd hand account here so bear with me. Friends of mine (who dont know much about the history) went on the tour. (from what I gather) They were told by the guide a most peculiar sanitised version of the killings. It was if the communists that did the shooting really didnt want to kill the Romanovs ... it was really most unfortunate and involved the reluctant soldiers being selected to be in the killing group by drawing straws, and the Romanovs were painlessly shot in the back of the head.

I have always wanted to visit Russia, especially St. Petersburg. This would seem to me to be fairly typical of the current regime's (and other similar countries') practices. This "cleansing" of any country's bad points in history really irritates me.

Full background information makes for wonderful teaching opportunities as to how to avoid future problems. "Cleanse" enough of a civilization's history and it fades away. IMO, we are already doing a good job of wiping out our heritage by the elimination of history and social studies in many of our schools and colleges.

[Gene C]

(07-19-2018 08:22 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Full background information makes for wonderful teaching opportunities as to how to avoid future problems. "Cleanse" enough of a civilization's history and it fades away. IMO, we are already doing a good job of wiping out our heritage by the elimination of history and social studies in many of our schools and colleges.

from the book of Ecclesiastes, Chapter 1, verses 9-11

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them

[L Verge]

(07-19-2018 10:47 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(07-19-2018 08:22 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Full background information makes for wonderful teaching opportunities as to how to avoid future problems. "Cleanse" enough of a civilization's history and it fades away. IMO, we are already doing a good job of wiping out our heritage by the elimination of history and social studies in many of our schools and colleges.

from the book of Ecclesiastes, Chapter 1, verses 9-11

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them

No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them

If they allow me to teach and preach history long enough, I intend to inform future generations about the former generations... been doing it for nearly 60 years, and I ain't stoppin' now!

[AussieMick]

reading all the above I was reminded of an Orwell quotation ... when I searched I found another that I'll include

#1 (written in 1940 but the theme is true)
“What can the England of 1940 have in common with the England of 1840? But then, what have you in common with the child of five whose photograph your mother keeps on the mantelpiece? Nothing, except that you happen to be the same person.”

(If I were an English Lit teacher I set that as a homework question as in ... "(quotation)" Discuss.


#2
“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

Now that seems very apt for the controversy over gun ownership ... it can be taken as supporting gun ownership of course ... but also the last sentence makes the strongest point.

[L Verge]

(07-19-2018 06:22 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(07-19-2018 10:47 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(07-19-2018 08:22 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Full background information makes for wonderful teaching opportunities as to how to avoid future problems. "Cleanse" enough of a civilization's history and it fades away. IMO, we are already doing a good job of wiping out our heritage by the elimination of history and social studies in many of our schools and colleges.

from the book of Ecclesiastes, Chapter 1, verses 9-11

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them

No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them

If they allow me to teach and preach history long enough, I intend to inform future generations about the former generations... been doing it for nearly 60 years, and I ain't stoppin' now!

Thought I would pass along some information that I posted today on another blog since the subject relates to keeping history alive (as usual, I'm a tad verbose):

Just a quick sidebar that may inspire hope in those of us who think that full histories can be told and circumstances understood: As I type, Surratt House has over 50 county social studies teachers participating in a summer institute geared around how local history can be applied to county curriculums and, most importantly, applied to current issues nationwide.

Our museum has created a pilot program for that project that tells the story of the Civil War in Maryland, the choices that the Surratt family made, and the repercussions. Modern applications include the continuing struggle for civil rights (for various ethnic groups who have immigrated here for 300 years), the possibility of applying martial law, suspending the writ of habeas corpus, creating military tribunals in times of national emergencies — and even teaching the changing role of women in American history, which was bolstered by the Civil War and continues today.

Believe it or not, there are still folks who are interested in all facets of history, including the erection of statues and memorials as a backlash to rising civil rights movements that surged ahead because of the rebirth of race issues in the first quarter of the 20th century — and that rebirth led to the momentous changes that began in my generation of the 1950s-1970s and continues today. My point being that there is something to learn about every facet of history, and that is the point that I concentrated on as a used history teacher for the first decade of my professional life.

[Gene C]

(07-19-2018 06:22 PM)L Verge Wrote:  If they allow me to teach and preach history long enough, I intend to inform future generations about the former generations... been doing it for nearly 60 years, and I ain't stoppin' now!

I'm thankful for you and other teachers that share your ideals.
Unfortunately many of our schools (and homes) want to take God and biblical values out of education, and their place in our society and culture. We can see the current result in foreign countries and in our own. We can see the results repeatedly through history. Those are lessons that also need to be taught.

[Tom Bogar]

Coincidentally, I was in St. Petersburg on July 17 and 18, and took long, narrated tours both days, the 17th to Peterhof Palace, and the 18th through the Hermitage. On neither day did either Russian guide (both exceptionally knowledgeable and competent) make any mention of the historic anniversary. (I did keep up with this board, though, every day, but didn't feel it would be appropriate to mention the date to anyone there.)

[L Verge]

(07-24-2018 10:03 AM)Tom Bogar Wrote:  Coincidentally, I was in St. Petersburg on July 17 and 18, and took long, narrated tours both days, the 17th to Peterhof Palace, and the 18th through the Hermitage. On neither day did either Russian guide (both exceptionally knowledgeable and competent) make any mention of the historic anniversary. (I did keep up with this board, though, every day, but didn't feel it would be appropriate to mention the date to anyone there.)

I am sooooo envious!