What makes a great politician?

[AussieMick]

I grew up in UK and recall the massive support there for the charismatic Jack Kennedy.

(IMO) We'll never know whether he would have been a great president. How would the Vietnam issue have been ... He did give some great speeches (as did Robert) and he was (I think) a very astute politician. You dont get to be US Pres without being astute.

He made mistakes (Bay of Pigs) early on but his stance on the Cuba missile crisis was courageous and dealing with Kruschev was something very very important - how many other politicians would have been as good as him at that time? I think that he would have been very decisive over Vietnam ... he was I think a very quick learner and not afraid to make decisions. It may be that there were skeletons in the cupboard which would have caused damage (his lovelife and "debts" owed to people that supported his election ... these may or may not be scuttlebutt).

I think Jack Kennedy was intrinsically a good man with human weaknesses. As a president he saved the world from nuclear destruction over Cuba and faced down the Communist menace. His death was a great loss to the world. In his short time he had an enormous effect that benefited us all.

[L Verge]

(12-20-2017 05:07 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  I grew up in UK and recall the massive support there for the charismatic Jack Kennedy.

(IMO) We'll never know whether he would have been a great president. How would the Vietnam issue have been ... He did give some great speeches (as did Robert) and he was (I think) a very astute politician. You dont get to be US Pres without being astute.

He made mistakes (Bay of Pigs) early on but his stance on the Cuba missile crisis was courageous and dealing with Kruschev was something very very important - how many other politicians would have been as good as him at that time? I think that he would have been very decisive over Vietnam ... he was I think a very quick learner and not afraid to make decisions. It may be that there were skeletons in the cupboard which would have caused damage (his lovelife and "debts" owed to people that supported his election ... these may or may not be scuttlebutt).

I think Jack Kennedy was intrinsically a good man with human weaknesses. As a president he saved the world from nuclear destruction over Cuba and faced down the Communist menace. His death was a great loss to the world. In his short time he had an enormous effect that benefited us all.

I like you, Mr. Australia!

[JMadonna]

(12-20-2017 01:07 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Eva - I'm a product of the Kennedy era and was invigorated by Jack, Jackie, the kids, and Bobby and sister Eunice (not so much by others in the family). He also surrounded himself with some savvy people. At least for me, they had the charisma to make us believe in ourselves.

Would the President have been able to achieve his goals if he had lived? I have my doubts for a number of reasons, such as outside forces working against him, his father's reputation, and in some respects his not knowing where the skeletons were hidden!

For example, I don't think he could have pushed through the civil rights programs. It took a good old Southern manipulator like LBJ to do that. He'd been in politics long enough to know where weak spots were in the legislators and how to push just the right buttons. Yet, implementing his legislation was still difficult, and Vietnam was his death knell.

As for the recently departed President Obama, I have to admit that the first time I heard him speak, I was impressed. But then I asked myself who was he and how did he seem to pop up out of thin air. I did some investigating and became concerned about a lack of experience, the fact that few knew anything about him, his backers, his mother, etc.

He talked a good game, but I doubted his ability to lead and deliver. This is strictly my personal opinion, but I think my impression as to the quality of leadership he could provide was accurate. Perhaps, in 1960, if I had had a lot more experience and maturity, I would have thought the same about John F. Kennedy... But, there was a certain fire and polish in JFK that I never saw in the now-past administration. It boiled down to TRUST. And that's something that I'm finding it very hard to place in the current political world.

Now, y'all can go ahead and blacklist me.

I agree with Gene about the politics of fear and your assessment of the differences in the Obama and Kennedy administrations.

Another important aspect of being a politician is control of the message. Although the press overlooked his sexual peccadilloes, Kennedy did not have complete control of the media that Obama did, hence he had to continually make his position clear whenever he could.

Obama knew that he would not be challenged by the the media so he could get away with anything. If someone outside the media challenged him the race card would come out along with the politics of fear.

[David Lockmiller]

(12-20-2017 05:45 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Did he go to the moon or was it his effort/research? I would think it's the scientists'. (And other countries contributed to that, too, the Russians actually were the first to invade space, the US had to catch and keep up.)

No Money in the Federal Budget would have meant No Space Science for the United States (Scientists don't work for free). See Wikipedia- Budget of NASA and accompanying chart titled "NASA's Budget as Percentage of Federal Budget, from 1958 to 2017": 1958- one tenth of 1 percent; 1959- two tenths of 1 percent; 1960- half of 1 percent; 1961- nine tenths of 1 percent; 1962- 1.2 percent; 1963- 2.3 percent; 1964- 3.5 percent; 1965- 4.4 percent; 1966- 4.5 percent; and then a general decline started.

Did John Kennedy go to the moon? Kennedy did not do so, but neither has Putin or any other Russian leader from Nikita Khrushchev on down to Putin.

Eva writes that "the Russians actually were the first to invade space, the US had to catch and keep up." This is true.

But there are some people who might argue that the Americans have actually surpassed the accomplishments of the Russians in space.

Twelve American astronauts have walked on the Moon's surface, and six of those drove Lunar Roving Vehicles on the Moon. The nine Apollo missions to the Moon occurred between December 1968 and December 1972. No Russian has even walked on the moon.

President Kennedy's inspiring words of September 12, 1962 were: "We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade."

Apollo 11 blasted off on July 16, 1969. Neil Armstrong, Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin and Michael Collins were the astronauts on Apollo 11. Four days later, Armstrong and Aldrin landed on the moon in the Lunar Module.

A Mars rover is an automated motor vehicle that propels itself across the surface of the planet Mars. There have been four successful robotically operated Mars rovers; all have been American.

The twin American Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft are exploring where nothing from Earth has flown before. Continuing on their more-than-39-year journey since their 1977 launches, they each are much farther away from Earth and the sun than Pluto. In August 2012, Voyager 1 made the historic entry into interstellar space, the region between stars, filled with material ejected by the death of nearby stars millions of years ago. Scientists hope to learn more about this region when Voyager 2, in the “heliosheath" — the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar medium — also reaches interstellar space. Both spacecraft are still sending scientific information about their surroundings through the Deep Space Network.

The primary mission was the exploration of Jupiter and Saturn. After making a string of discoveries there — such as active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io and intricacies of Saturn's rings — the mission was extended. Voyager 2 went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, and is still the only spacecraft to have visited those outer planets. The adventurers' current mission, the Voyager Interstellar Mission (VIM), will explore the outermost edge of the Sun's domain.

The transcript of Steve Martin's Saturday Night Live skit from April 22, 1978 reads:

"The four words that came to us from outer space -- the FOUR words that will appear on the cover of Time Magazine next week -- are: [Steve Martin holds up the magazine] "Send More Chuck Berry." The audience applauded enthusiastically.

But there would have been no enthusiastic applause in 1978 for this "Chuck Berry" Saturday Night Live skit had it not been for the words and actions of President John F. Kennedy in the years of his administration.

I was in class at MacArthur High School in Decatur, Illinois when it was announced over the intercom that President Kennedy had been assassinated. It was a very sad day for me and I felt that it was a very great loss for the nation. After the Cuban missile crisis in October, 1962, I remember that my history teacher said at the time that he had been prepared to enter a nuclear bomb shelter that he had built for his family. Those were very serious times and President Kennedy showed great courage and determination as I vividly recall.

I also liked President Kennedy's sense of humor. I was watching a taped news conference at the time and a female journalist got up and asked the President a very long and loaded question about his support for the women's movement and whether he thought his efforts in behalf of this cause had been sufficient. The President's first words in response were: "Obviously, not enough."

Jackie dazzled all of Paris when the Kennedys visited May 31-June 3, 1961. So much greater was the attention paid to her than to him that President Kennedy remarked to the press, with some pride and humor, “I do not think it altogether inappropriate for me to introduce myself. I am the man who accompanied Jacqueline Kennedy to Paris.”

[L Verge]

(12-20-2017 07:42 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(12-20-2017 05:45 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Did he go to the moon or was it his effort/research? I would think it's the scientists'. (And other countries contributed to that, too, the Russians actually were the first to invade space, the US had to catch and keep up.)

No Money in the Federal Budget would have meant No Space Science for the United States (Scientists don't work for free). See Wikipedia- Budget of NASA and accompanying chart titled "NASA's Budget as Percentage of Federal Budget, from 1958 to 2017": 1958- one tenth of 1 percent; 1959- two tenths of 1 percent; 1960- half of 1 percent; 1961- nine tenths of 1 percent; 1962- 1.2 percent; 1963- 2.3 percent; 1964- 3.5 percent; 1965- 4.4 percent; 1966- 4.5 percent; and then a general decline started.

Did John Kennedy go to the moon? Kennedy did not do so, but neither has Putin or any other Russian leader from Nikita Khrushchev on down to Putin.

Eva writes that "the Russians actually were the first to invade space, the US had to catch and keep up." This is true.

But there are some people who might argue that the Americans have actually surpassed the accomplishments of the Russians in space.

Twelve American astronauts have walked on the Moon's surface, and six of those drove Lunar Roving Vehicles on the Moon. The nine Apollo missions to the Moon occurred between December 1968 and December 1972. No Russian has even walked on the moon.

President Kennedy's inspiring words of September 12, 1962 were: "We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade."

Apollo 11 blasted off on July 16, 1969. Neil Armstrong, Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin and Michael Collins were the astronauts on Apollo 11. Four days later, Armstrong and Aldrin landed on the moon in the Lunar Module.

A Mars rover is an automated motor vehicle that propels itself across the surface of the planet Mars. There have been four successful robotically operated Mars rovers; all have been American.

The twin American Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft are exploring where nothing from Earth has flown before. Continuing on their more-than-39-year journey since their 1977 launches, they each are much farther away from Earth and the sun than Pluto. In August 2012, Voyager 1 made the historic entry into interstellar space, the region between stars, filled with material ejected by the death of nearby stars millions of years ago. Scientists hope to learn more about this region when Voyager 2, in the “heliosheath" — the outermost layer of the heliosphere where the solar wind is slowed by the pressure of interstellar medium — also reaches interstellar space. Both spacecraft are still sending scientific information about their surroundings through the Deep Space Network.

The primary mission was the exploration of Jupiter and Saturn. After making a string of discoveries there — such as active volcanoes on Jupiter's moon Io and intricacies of Saturn's rings — the mission was extended. Voyager 2 went on to explore Uranus and Neptune, and is still the only spacecraft to have visited those outer planets. The adventurers' current mission, the Voyager Interstellar Mission (VIM), will explore the outermost edge of the Sun's domain.

The transcript of Steve Martin's Saturday Night Live skit from April 22, 1978 reads:

"The four words that came to us from outer space -- the FOUR words that will appear on the cover of Time Magazine next week -- are: [Steve Martin holds up the magazine] "Send More Chuck Berry." The audience applauded enthusiastically.

But there would have been no enthusiastic applause in 1978 for this "Chuck Berry" Saturday Night Live skit had it not been for the words and actions of President John F. Kennedy in the years of his administration.

I was in class at MacArthur High School in Decatur, Illinois when it was announced over the intercom that President Kennedy had been assassinated. It was a very sad day for me and I felt that it was a very great loss for the nation. After the Cuban missile crisis in October, 1962, I remember that my history teacher said at the time that he had been prepared to enter a nuclear bomb shelter that he had built for his family. Those were very serious times and President Kennedy showed great courage and determination as I vividly recall.

I also liked President Kennedy's sense of humor. I was watching a taped news conference at the time and a female journalist got up and asked the President a very long and loaded question about his support for the women's movement and whether he thought his efforts in behalf of this cause had been sufficient. The President's first words in response were: "Obviously, not enough."

Jackie dazzled all of Paris when the Kennedys visited May 31-June 3, 1961. So much greater was the attention paid to her than to him that President Kennedy remarked to the press, with some pride and humor, “I do not think it altogether inappropriate for me to introduce myself. I am the man who accompanied Jacqueline Kennedy to Paris.”

Thank you, David, for this synopsis. I will always have respect for John F. Kennedy and his dreams for what America could be. And, Eva, I'm very glad that the German scientists were brought to our country, where they were able to achieve better things for mankind than weapons of mass destruction.

[David Lockmiller]

(12-21-2017 09:03 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Thank you, David, for this synopsis. I will always have respect for John F. Kennedy and his dreams for what America could be. And, Eva, I'm very glad that the German scientists were brought to our country, where they were able to achieve better things for mankind than weapons of mass destruction.

You make an excellent point about the German scientists. These men jump-started the American space program.

Operation Paperclip was a secret program of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA) in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, such as Wernher von Braun and his V-2 rocket team, were recruited in post-Nazi Germany and taken to the U.S. for government employment, primarily between 1945 and 1959. Wernher von Braun was one of the most important German weapons specialists to work on rocketry and jet propulsion in the U.S. after WWII. He was chiefly responsible for rocketry for the nation's space program. There was also a group of about 20 German scientists who specialized in Electronics - including guidance systems, radar and satellites.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Unfortunately most great inventions were made for war and military, and at first not intended for people's benefit, also in the US.

Thank you, Laurie, for providing me insight as for Kennedy - I do see the glamorous charisma he possessed. I personally dislike too much glamor (and (wo)men-nizing) with those in role-model-positions. However, the work and results is what I care for, and whether they are good role models.

---

Forgot -

"Have you ever noticed how Captain Kirk's communicator so resembles the cellphone that everyone now holds in their hands?"

I've never seen any space SCIFI, but the mobile phone does influence many people's life. However, it realized long before (I think) Mr. Cirk did as well as anyone walked on the moon. The fist service and net was offered in 1926 on trains of the German Reichsbahn and Reichspost between Hamburg and Berlin.

Here's a newspaper's vision of this being available everywhere in the future (and look what else it envisioned):
       

[L Verge]

Thank you, Laurie, for providing me insight as for Kennedy - I do see the glamorous charisma he possessed. I personally dislike too much glamor (and (wo)men-nizing) with those in role-model-positions. However, the work and results is what I care for, and whether they are good role models.

I think we all feel that way, Eva. Unfortunately, that seems to have been the way the world has worked for thousands of years. I suspect we would be hard-pressed to develop a list of politicians/rulers who did not have blemishes in their political and/or private lives - no matter what country we choose to investigate.

Somehow, we usually manage to keep moving forward. Sometimes it takes years to overcome a bad leader, but good voters are supposed to bring better sense to things when they go to the polls or get on their soap boxes.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thank you, Laurie, for accepting my point of view, too.

[David Lockmiller]

(12-21-2017 11:15 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  "Have you ever noticed how Captain Kirk's communicator so resembles the cellphone that everyone now holds in their hands?"

I've never seen any space SCIFI . . . .

The original Star Trek series is the only series that I watch. I would highly recommend to you the episode “The City on the Edge of Forever,” from the Original Series Season 1.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks - I haven't watched any TV for (in?) years (except for some "big" soccer games) - I attend the theater/opera/ballet Saturdays whenever possible. (You probably would have liked this one - one of my favorites:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=32RpAOh65Vw
Unfortunately not in the video but Macbeth succombs his want for power as Macduff kills him with the long spikes of his crown - very metaphorical.)

[David Lockmiller]

(12-23-2017 04:56 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Thanks - I haven't watched any TV for (in?) years (except for some "big" soccer games) - I attend the theater/opera/ballet Saturdays whenever possible. (You probably would have liked this one - one of my favorites:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=32RpAOh65Vw
Unfortunately not in the video but Macbeth succombs his want for power as Macduff kills him with the long spikes of his crown - very metaphorical.)

Different people; different tastes.

I watched your video suggestion. Please watch my video suggestion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1P7Q0TU4NE

[Gene C]

I don't do to the theater, opera, or ballet much, but here is one opera that is my favorite, and I was fortunate enough to see it preformed on stage..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JaeBxYCI9k

Wonder why they never came up with a Phantom of the Ballet?

[L Verge]

(12-23-2017 10:14 AM)Gene C Wrote:  I don't do to the theater, opera, or ballet much, but here is one opera that is my favorite, and I was fortunate enough to see it preformed on stage..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JaeBxYCI9k

Wonder why they never came up with a Phantom of the Ballet?

The Phantom is my favorite stage production also, Gene, followed closely by Les Mis... I've seen it four times at the Kennedy Center and would go back again and again if able.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I saw it in Hamburg...
I like it very much, beautiful music, but I like "real life tragedies" even more, like "Cabaret" or "West Side Story" (better than the original "Romeo and Juliet") as there's more dimension and meaning. I like to learn from what I see, get new insights as for real life, society, etc. "Evita" was quite touching as well. I like when there's a catharsis effect. (However, I also like good entertainment and life music...)

---

(12-23-2017 10:14 AM)Gene C Wrote:  I don't do to the theater, opera, or ballet much, but here is one opera that is my favorite, and I was fortunate enough to see it preformed on stage..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JaeBxYCI9k

Wonder why they never came up with a Phantom of the Ballet?

But there is a ballet in "Phantom of the Opera"!