Is This Abraham Lincoln?

[wcvet6]

(06-21-2017 05:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-20-2017 04:47 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  that death photo shows a full beard , the embalmer shaved him, no slight smile as per embalmers report , in fact I believe it to be a bust of his 1861 life mask, abe looked much older at death.

Offhand I cannot think of a single historian who has ever questioned the legitimacy of Dr. Ron Rietveld's magnificent find.

teaching history per the AHA, is leading the student to
the insight that history is a process of living inquiry, not an inert collection of accepted facts, and avoidance of conflict f interest, or bias, and conduct free of ridicule and the ability to protect new historical sourse materials ,to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance because of ron rietvelds lead by the nose planted find . and once you bullies started to deny the obvious only post mortum of abe Lincoln the rest of you fell in line . no one addressed my challenges , no one compared his features that are truly distinct, despite the brady stand it is a post mortum his lips are sewn shut, set in a slight smile .clean shaven like the embalmers report you posted on this site , that statue in the coffin is just that . deal with it ! I wonder how many artifacts are lost due to historians non scientific approach and failure to consider. I am very disappointed in this matter , but thank you rj Norton for posting , and good day to all of you.

[L Verge]

Roger, was there ever an official embalmer's report posted on this forum? I did a quick search and found none. I can't say that I ever looked for the official embalmer's report elsewhere, but I don't recall anyone ever talking about there being a written one. Help?

[RJNorton]

(06-21-2017 02:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Roger, was there ever an embalmer's report posted on this forum? I did a quick search and found none. I can't say that I ever looked for the embalmer's report elsewhere, but I don't recall anyone ever talking about there being a written one. Help?

Twenty Days says:

Lincoln's blood was drained through the jugular vein. A cut was then made in the thigh and through it a chemical substance was force-pumped which hardened the body like marble. The undertakers then shaved the face, but they left a tuft on the chin. The mouth was set in a very slight smile, the eyebrows were arched, and the eyes were closed.

[L Verge]

Interesting tidbit on the dentist/embalmer who prepared President Lincoln's body: "Dr. Charles DeCosta Brown was a practicing New York dentist before the war and he returned to a successful dental practice after. What were the circumstances of this odd piece of history? In the years before dentistry organized itself into a separate profession, Dr. Brown was among some physicians who limited their practice to dental care. Upon graduating from the University of Pennsylvania Medical School Dr. Brown practiced medicine in Philadelphia until 1850 when he moved to New York to study dentistry. No mention was made of graduating from a dental school and there was no college of dentistry in New York State until 1865, so it is assumed that he studied dentistry in preceptor training. He was successfully practicing dentistry when the Civil War broke out in 1861. A former patient, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, appointed the multi-skilled Dr. Brown to the post of official Embalmer of the United States government. Embalmer- Surgeons were in great demand, considering over 618,000 soldiers died in that war. Mr. Lincoln was the first President of the United States to be embalmed. Accounts of the time state that President Lincoln’s body remained in good shape on that trip. It is said that embalming became more common partly because of the public success of the Lincoln funeral.

"Discussion. History supports the premise that although it is a very negative set of events, war advances some positive technical and social practices. It is easy to see that over 600,000 dead produced a need for improved mortuary science. Dr. Brown apparently contributed technologically as evidenced by his holding a patent on an embalming technique. The U.S. Army adopted embalming in a time when it was looked upon as an ancient ritual of Egyptians. This advance in practice certainly benefited the nation as a whole. Dr. Brown performed many of these military embalming but the very public attention produced by preparing the great leader of our nation for his final journey changed practices of civilian and military alike."

---

(06-21-2017 02:50 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 02:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Roger, was there ever an embalmer's report posted on this forum? I did a quick search and found none. I can't say that I ever looked for the embalmer's report elsewhere, but I don't recall anyone ever talking about there being a written one. Help?

Twenty Days says:

Lincoln's blood was drained through the jugular vein. A cut was then made in the thigh and through it a chemical substance was force-pumped which hardened the body like marble. The undertakers then shaved the face, but they left a tuft on the chin. The mouth was set in a very slight smile, the eyebrows were arched, and the eyes were closed.

I have seen that in several other sources, but they never seem to say that it was taken directly from an official report by Dr. Brown or his partner.

[LincolnMan]

Always interesting discussions!

[RJNorton]

(06-21-2017 02:51 PM)L Verge Wrote:  A former patient, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, appointed the multi-skilled Dr. Brown to the post of official Embalmer of the United States government. Embalmer- Surgeons were in great demand, considering over 618,000 soldiers died in that war. Mr. Lincoln was the first President of the United States to be embalmed.

Here is one of Dr. Brown's newspaper ads:

[Eva Elisabeth]

Re.: "to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance" - please stick to your own request and accept as for me the photo simply doesn't look like Abraham Lincoln to me. Just my perception - if I had come across it it would never have reminded me of him. I'm afraid I do not see what you do, maybe because the photo is so blurred and you may have a better one. I DO respect your opinion. I just cannot see it myself from the means given. (Much more belly also it sems to me btw.)
(My sincere suggestion is to explicitly ask only those to post who agree with you if you don't want to get/hear different opinion.)

[Gene C]

(06-20-2017 04:47 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  

this is a post mortum abe Lincoln , compare his facial features , ears ,hands arms shoulders, the hair color could be the lighting or flash,
check the hairline , the embalmers report says he set his lips in a slight smile my photo shows that , he was clean shaven except a tuft on his chin ,

---

Mr. Lincoln is looking fairly alert for a post mortum photo. I guess the lighting or flash could make his black hair look white, but maybe it was the embalming chemicals, or perhaps his hair had been white for a while, but that he had worn a hairpiece to make himself look younger. (It worked for Gideon Welles and Thaddeus Stevens)

As for a post motum standing image, that reminds me of a song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMiEFyTuuh8

[Steve]

(06-21-2017 01:49 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  teaching history per the AHA, is leading the student to
the insight that history is a process of living inquiry, not an inert collection of accepted facts, and avoidance of conflict f interest, or bias, and conduct free of ridicule and the ability to protect new historical sourse materials ,to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance because of ron rietvelds lead by the nose planted find . and once you bullies started to deny the obvious only post mortum of abe Lincoln the rest of you fell in line . no one addressed my challenges , no one compared his features that are truly distinct, despite the brady stand it is a post mortum his lips are sewn shut, set in a slight smile .clean shaven like the embalmers report you posted on this site , that statue in the coffin is just that . deal with it ! I wonder how many artifacts are lost due to historians non scientific approach and failure to consider. I am very disappointed in this matter , but thank you rj Norton for posting , and good day to all of you.

One topic on the internet that is frequently mischaracterized is Victorian postmortem photography. I would highly recommend looking at this site about the topic:

https://dealer042.wixsite.com/post-mortem-photos

Perhaps it would better explain why I believe that the person in your photograph was still living.

[Gene C]

That is a very interesting link Steve, thanks for posting that.
I have seen some of those photo's previously, and mistakenly assumed they were post-mortem.

For me the most obvious challenge to the photo not being Lincoln was the hair color. That comment, which some people agreed with, was made before Roger posted the Rietveld photo.
Marsha wrote "the hair color could be the lighting or flash"
I don't see that as a satisfactory or realistic explanation.
I also could not see any evidence of "lips sewn shut".
I think Eva expressed it well when she replied to Marsha (wcvet16) "My sincere suggestion is to explicitly ask only those to post who agree with you if you don't want to get/hear different opinions."

As one of the "bullies" and critics of the photograph - You asked for our comments.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Regarding all the memento locks cut off his hair I wonder how much was left at all.

[L Verge]

(06-22-2017 08:57 AM)Steve Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 01:49 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  teaching history per the AHA, is leading the student to
the insight that history is a process of living inquiry, not an inert collection of accepted facts, and avoidance of conflict f interest, or bias, and conduct free of ridicule and the ability to protect new historical sourse materials ,to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance because of ron rietvelds lead by the nose planted find . and once you bullies started to deny the obvious only post mortum of abe Lincoln the rest of you fell in line . no one addressed my challenges , no one compared his features that are truly distinct, despite the brady stand it is a post mortum his lips are sewn shut, set in a slight smile .clean shaven like the embalmers report you posted on this site , that statue in the coffin is just that . deal with it ! I wonder how many artifacts are lost due to historians non scientific approach and failure to consider. I am very disappointed in this matter , but thank you rj Norton for posting , and good day to all of you.

One topic on the internet that is frequently mischaracterized is Victorian postmortem photography. I would highly recommend looking at this site about the topic:

https://dealer042.wixsite.com/post-mortem-photos

Perhaps it would better explain why I believe that the person in your photograph was still living.

Thanks for posting this site, Steve. Surratt House Museum did a Victorian mourning exhibit every year for over a decade. Believe it or not, it was one of the most popular ones (except with senior citizens) that we have ever put together.

Included in our exhibit was a good number of post mortem photos - mainly of children, however. They seemed to be the most photographed of the various age groups, probably because it was likely the only memento that many parents would have since so many died at an early age.

Trust me, it was a heart-wrenching chore to place those photos (all original to the 19th century) into the display cases. One that really affected me was a dead mother holding a dead twin (about a month-old in age) in either arm.

I do hope that Marsha sneaks a peek at some of these later posts so that she understands that many of us are knowledgeable in a wide variety of subjects and use that knowledge to help others.

[Mac_Guffey]

(06-21-2017 01:49 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 05:37 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-20-2017 04:47 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  that death photo shows a full beard , the embalmer shaved him, no slight smile as per embalmers report , in fact I believe it to be a bust of his 1861 life mask, abe looked much older at death.

Offhand I cannot think of a single historian who has ever questioned the legitimacy of Dr. Ron Rietveld's magnificent find.

teaching history per the AHA, is leading the student to
the insight that history is a process of living inquiry, not an inert collection of accepted facts, and avoidance of conflict f interest, or bias, and conduct free of ridicule and the ability to protect new historical sourse materials ,to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance because of ron rietvelds lead by the nose planted find . and once you bullies started to deny the obvious only post mortum of abe Lincoln the rest of you fell in line . no one addressed my challenges , no one compared his features that are truly distinct, despite the brady stand it is a post mortum his lips are sewn shut, set in a slight smile .clean shaven like the embalmers report you posted on this site , that statue in the coffin is just that . deal with it ! I wonder how many artifacts are lost due to historians non scientific approach and failure to consider. I am very disappointed in this matter , but thank you rj Norton for posting , and good day to all of you.

I'm uncomfortable with that statement.

It was an open inquiry. As far as "academic inquiry" goes, everyone offered arguments & even documentation in the form of links, photos, etc to back up WHY they thought it was NOT Lincoln - pre or post-mortum. True academic inquiry allows for both YOUR theory & others. Grades are earned based on the evidence offered in support of said theory.

The use of the word "bullies" indicates, in fact, that if opinions do differ from someone's, then the person differing runs the risk of being called a name. In a broad legal sense, that coercion. It stifles true academic inquiry.

If your photo wasn't given the due diligence you felt it deserved, then more/better evidence was necessary. If it still didn't change minds, then that leaves 2 avenues: first, accept that what you offered wasn't what you thought it was, & re-investigate OR second, those whose minds you were attempting to change aren't worth changing.

But name-calling has no place in academic inquiry, the classroom, or on a discussion thread of learned people.

By the way, the photo does not resemble Lincoln in the least. Feet are in the wrong shoes, aren't prominent to the extent that Lincoln's were because of his Marfen's Syndrome, AND last, because photography of that nature did NOT whiten hair...the exposure time required was too long.

It was a fun exercise though. Thank you for offering that opportunity.

[wcvet6]

(06-21-2017 02:51 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Interesting tidbit on the dentist/embalmer who prepared President Lincoln's body: "Dr. Charles DeCosta Brown was a practicing New York dentist before the war and he returned to a successful dental practice after. What were the circumstances of this odd piece of history? In the years before dentistry organized itself into a separate profession, Dr. Brown was among some physicians who limited their practice to dental care. Upon graduating from the University of Pennsylvania Medical School Dr. Brown practiced medicine in Philadelphia until 1850 when he moved to New York to study dentistry. No mention was made of graduating from a dental school and there was no college of dentistry in New York State until 1865, so it is assumed that he studied dentistry in preceptor training. He was successfully practicing dentistry when the Civil War broke out in 1861. A former patient, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, appointed the multi-skilled Dr. Brown to the post of official Embalmer of the United States government. Embalmer- Surgeons were in great demand, considering over 618,000 soldiers died in that war. Mr. Lincoln was the first President of the United States to be embalmed. Accounts of the time state that President Lincoln’s body remained in good shape on that trip. It is said that embalming became more common partly because of the public success of the Lincoln funeral.

dr browns brother's stepson Henry p. Cattell was abe's embalmer.
"Discussion. History supports the premise that although it is a very negative set of events, war advances some positive technical and social practices. It is easy to see that over 600,000 dead produced a need for improved mortuary science. Dr. Brown apparently contributed technologically as evidenced by his holding a patent on an embalming technique. The U.S. Army adopted embalming in a time when it was looked upon as an ancient ritual of Egyptians. This advance in practice certainly benefited the nation as a whole. Dr. Brown performed many of these military embalming but the very public attention produced by preparing the great leader of our nation for his final journey changed practices of civilian and military alike."

---

(06-21-2017 02:50 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-21-2017 02:16 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Roger, was there ever an embalmer's report posted on this forum? I did a quick search and found none. I can't say that I ever looked for the embalmer's report elsewhere, but I don't recall anyone ever talking about there being a written one. Help?

Twenty Days says:

Lincoln's blood was drained through the jugular vein. A cut was then made in the thigh and through it a chemical substance was force-pumped which hardened the body like marble. The undertakers then shaved the face, but they left a tuft on the chin. The mouth was set in a very slight smile, the eyebrows were arched, and the eyes were closed.

I have seen that in several other sources, but they never seem to say that it was taken directly from an official report by Dr. Brown or his partner.

it was henry p. Cattell dr. brown's brother's stepsonwhom dr brown trained.

---

(06-22-2017 06:01 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Re.: "to respect others views even if they differ from your own . I feel nobody gave this photo a chance" - please stick to your own request and accept as for me the photo simply doesn't look like Abraham Lincoln to me. Just my perception - if I had come across it it would never have reminded me of him. I'm afraid I do not see what you do, maybe because the photo is so blurred and you may have a better one. I DO respect your opinion. I just cannot see it myself from the means given. (Much more belly also it sems to me btw.)
(My sincere suggestion is to explicitly ask only those to post who agree with you if you don't want to get/hear different opinion.)

you need glasses and an open mind. politics everywhere!

[RJNorton]

(06-22-2017 09:04 PM)wcvet6 Wrote:  dr browns brother's stepson Henry p. Cattell was abe's embalmer.

This is correct. I could not find a report written by Cattell, and the most detailed description I could find was in a post by Kees on this forum back in 2014. Here is what Kees posted:

In a brochure of the Museum of Funeral Customs, 1440 Monument Avenue, Springfield, Illinois, I read the following:

Embalming immediately followed the autopsy. To perform the actual operation, Stanton called upon the firm of Brown & Alexander, Embalming Surgeons. They sent one of their employees, Henry P. Cattell.

BTW: In the City Directory for 1865, the firm of [Dr.Charles DeCosta]Brown & [Dr. Joseph B.] Alexander, both Masons, was listed as follows: “Charles D. Brown, M.D., and Joseph R. Alexander, M.D. , embalmers and surgeons, 323 D. North.” Henry P. Cattell was not a qualified doctor, but was the stepson of Dr. Brown and highly skilled in embalming. He learned the trade working in the firm. Brown and Alexander were originally from New York, but during the Civil War operating in Washington, D.C. And after the War, I believe (but not sure) in Virginia.

Cattell first positioned the body, closed the eyes, arched the eyebrows, and set the mouth in a slight smile. He also shaved the face except for a short tuft at the chin. After closing the cranial incision, he began the arterial embalming. Cattell used the femoral artery (in the thigh) to inject the embalming fluid. The main preservative chemical in the solution was zinc chloride, extracted by dissolving sheets of zinc in hydrochloric acid. The embalming solution and method were both of a French nature, adopted by Brown & Alexander before the war.

Lincoln did not receive any cavity treatment, as it was not a common practice at the time. Soon, Lincoln's body hardened to a marblelike state, ready for the amazing journey in store for it. Persistent problems with skin discoloration around the eyes resulted from the grim nature of the murder. Due to a phenomena called transmitted force, the bullet's impact as it entered the back of the head cracked both of the skull's orbital plates in the front bruising the skin. With constant, but simple,cosmetic attention, the staff of Brown & Alexander, who traveled with the body, were able to keep Lincoln in a presentable viewing condition with the help of local embalmers and undertakers along the way. Though often noting these discolorations, newspaper accounts generally reported favorably on the president's appearance.

BTW: the French method Cattlett used was the technique of the French Prof. Dr. J. P. Sucquet from Paris, and called arterial embalming, i.e., opening up an artery in the cadaver, flushing out the blood with water and replacing it with a fluid pump via an incision in the thigh artery by a powerful antiseptic fluid which contains no arsenic or other poison. Sucquet’s technique was then seen as the only method by which a dead body could be perfectly preserved with a life-like expression for all time, and without change of color or feature. The process was simple and instantly arrested decomposition; the body hardened gradually into a marble like mass. Brown & Alexander did not use the method of Dr. Thomas Holmes, the “father of American embalming” , because of the health risks since Holmes’ embalming fluid contained dangerous levels of arsenic and mercury. Further the firm of Brown & Alexander wrote: “a corpse embalmed by us presents all the appearance of sleeping life, rather than the gloom of death”, while arsenic-based embalming fluids caused discoloration of the skin.

The following bill was rendered by Brown & Alexander: “To embalming remains of Abraham Lincoln, lately President of United States: $100”. “To 16 days’ services for self and assistant, at $10 per day: $160”. The “self” mentioned in the bill was Dr. Brown. The “assistant” was Harry P. Cattell.

While Cattell was engaged in his embalming work, undertaker Frank T. Sands in collaboration with undertakers M.F. & G.W. Harvey were designing and making a coffin (it was not a casket). The bill for the coffin was $1500. The total bill (inclusive all fabrics, fringes, tassells, threads, lining etc) was $7,459. Frank Sands also traveled with the body.