Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

SSlater · 12-14-2016, 03:48 PM

Laurie. Question for you. Do the "lectors" conducting the Escape Route Tours, speak about Harney and his part in the assassination?
My whole concept of the Assassination has changed. I wondered how it affected all of us.
Our old idea that Booth shot the President and then with the assistance of the South, attempted to get South. That's wrong. The South didn't know where he was, or even cared. Well, they might have cared, but didn't have time to do anything for him. When he was ordered to " back off "', on Lincoln, he was dropped from their sphere of attention and he was on his own. He had been demoted to a "nobody". Then in his mind he "saved the day" and shot Lincoln.
I am curious how "Historians" view this change. Do the people at Ford's Theater - talk about Harney? How about those National Lincoln Associations ? Anything you can add would be appreciated.

L Verge · 12-14-2016, 07:00 PM

I believe that John Howard mentions Harney, but I have not been on one of Dave's tours to know whether or not he does. He may respond to you here.

I do not recall hearing any others speak of Harney except those studying chiefly Mosby. The few I know seem to believe that Mosby was involved in the Harney escapade. Most of the national Lincoln associations that I am familiar with still try to avoid the assassination issue. As for the Rangers at Ford's, I have only heard one in recent years because I seldom go there. Eric Martin gives an excellent, abbreviated talk to our bus tour participants, but I'm not sure that Harney is part of it. Knowing Eric, however, he could speak on it if questioned.

Are you sure that the end result is any change in the thinking of Tidwell et al.? I remember JOH stressing from the beginning that Booth became a loose cannon when Richmond fell.

Dave Taylor · 12-14-2016, 07:19 PM

I do not discuss Harney when I give the escape route tour. Although it is hard to believe, the 12 hours go by really fast and I usually have barely enough time to get in all the important stuff about Booth and his plot. There's just not enough time to get into the other plots against Lincoln.

I also think it's likely a matter of personal preference. I, personally, have yet to be convinced that the Confederate government had any real involvement with John Wilkes Booth. In this way Harney and Booth are not really connected other than their shared goal of assassination, in my mind. I openly discuss the few connections that Booth had with the Confederacy (his trip to Montreal, John Surratt's life as a courier, etc.) but I am always honest with the bus group that there is no smoking gun between the two.

SSlater · 12-15-2016, 12:19 AM

I think that "Harney" is a complete change to the thinking of Tidwell. et.al.
The biggest surprise I got was the "Hogan" guy who claims that he delivered a message to Booth, from the confederate higher-ups (?) not to shoot Lincoln.
That demonstrates - clearly - that the Confederate Government knew exactly what Booth was up to. With that notice, Booth was removed from the plans yet to be developed. Booth did met with a delegation from New York and assisted in developing the plan to "Mine the White House". If Harney had not been captured, we would never have heard of Booth.
This is a complete change from what Booth planned. there was no need for an "escape route". The "protective troops", along the escape route were sent home. The Agents were called to Richmond -April 1 +/- (Jones claimed the trip was to collect back wages) They were relieved of "Assisting" Booth, so, Booth was left to his own resources.
I believe that the "abduction" was cancelled after the Mar 17th Capture attempt failed. Stringfellow was sent up to Washington to see what could be done, and the new "Mine the White House" resulted.
Mosby was totally involved and that was not easy for him. He had received new orders to "Patrol from the middle of Virginia to beyond the Blue Ridge". He couldn't spare men to escort Harney - but he did.
If you think this a valid approach, I will write it up, including footnotes and more details. From all that I can read, the South did not anticipate Richmond falling. They planned to fight on. Mosby got his chiefs together and was riding off to join Johnson. If Harney was successful, Mosby would "blow his whistle" and that whole Battalion would have been back together, etc. etc. etc.
PS. Did I ever tell you that my step-son is a direct descendent of a Mosby Ranger. The Ranger was Thomas B. Gayle I. My step-son is Thomas B. Gayle V. He married recently, maybe there will be a T.B.G. VI
PS Thanks for your replies. It's nice to know your thoughts.

RJNorton · 12-15-2016, 04:58 AM

(12-15-2016 12:19 AM)SSlater Wrote: The biggest surprise I got was the "Hogan" guy who claims that he delivered a message to Booth, from the confederate higher-ups (?) not to shoot Lincoln.

We know what the article here says about A.C. Richards is false, so I wonder how much of the entire article should be believed. Maybe Hogan's story is false, too?

BettyO · (This post was last modified: 12-15-2016 07:10 AM by BettyO.)

Quote:Mosby was totally involved and that was not easy for him. He had received new orders to "Patrol from the middle of Virginia to beyond the Blue Ridge". He couldn't spare men to escort Harney - but he did.

From my research, it appears that Mosby was somewhat more than involved in the plans for some big venture in the Northern Neck. Powell agreed to participate in this and was chosen by Mosby to do so. Several others whom Powell named when questioned by H. B. Smith in 1865 after his arrest in Baltimore, also were to go with Powell to Baltimore on this venture, but backed down at the last minute. They were Sowers, Cox and one other whom I can't remember right now. Powell was the only one who "stuck with it." He told Reverend Gillette the night before the execution that he "expected a promotion and the undying gratitude of the Southern people" from what ever was gained.... It appears the kid was pretty naive to believe such this late in the game....

Mosby always denied any involvement whatsoever and became good friends with Grant and went to work for the US government; confirmed by the Senate as United States consul to Hong Kong 1878 to 1885.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 12-16-2016 06:33 AM by Gene C.)

I know very little about these other plots except for what I read here on the forum.

My first impression is that Harney's plan to blow up the White House is half baked, and not to put to much credence into it.

Come Retribution makes some sense, although the detail was a bit confusing to me, and it's been so long since I read it.
Interesting to speculate, were these plans made for Booth and his group, or some one else. Who decided to authorize the attempts and who may have decided to pull the plug on the attempts (if anyone)
150 + years after the event, I'm doubtful we will ever know.

Interesting to see how the theories on the over all scenario shifts from deep confederate plot to kill Lincoln back to one fanatic and his few followers (2-4, depending on if you include Mom and Jr. Surratt) acting on their own.
John (SSlater) I would like to read more on what you have found. I enjoy these discussions and you all sharing your finding with us. (even though at times I find it somewhat confusing)
I also find it interesting on who is a credible witness, so many people claim to have some knowledge, to have seen or heard something. Then the fading and changing memories caused by age of many witnesses that were at one time very credible.

If Booth had hadn't been such an egomaniac, he might have been able to get away with it.
I guess he had to be an egomaniac to ever attempt it to begin with. (I need to go back and re-read the thread on Booth's Mental Health)

RJNorton · 12-16-2016, 07:15 AM

(12-15-2016 08:42 AM)Gene C Wrote: Interesting to see how the theories on the over all scenario shifts from deep confederate plot to kill Lincoln back to one fanatic and his few followers (2-4, depending on if you include Mom and Jr. Surratt) acting on their own.
ealth)

I agree, Gene. It is very, very difficult to figure out. Some assassination books do not even mention Harney. I do not think the books by Kauffman, Chamlee, or Pitch even mention Harney a single time (I not 100% sure on this, but pretty sure)

Others say Booth only acted after Harney failed.

What is the truth?

L Verge · 12-16-2016, 11:09 AM

There is one other Mosby-related (possibly) question that I have never had answered. Somewhere there is a reference to three horsemen in D.C. who encountered Union troops shortly after the assassination and skedaddled the other way in a big hurry. If correct, could they have been Mosby men sent to assist Booth? As you can see, I will likely never give up on my long-held, gut feeling that the Confederacy was still at the heart of the matter -- until Judah Benjamin slipped out of sight.

SSlater · 12-16-2016, 04:10 PM

Laurie. I can't remember ever hearing about the "3 horsemen", so I can't comment on that, but history confirms your gut feeling that the Leadership of the Confederacy was "at the heart of the matter". I believe as you do. We just can't read anything that would "Prove it".
How about this? (C.R. pg. 410) 28 Feb. 1864. DAVIS called Stringfellow into his office and gave him an assignment that took him into Washington. Stringfellow left R'mond March 1. '64. Stringfellow reported that "he had been in constant communication with an Officer occupying an important position about Lincoln" ( Would this have anything to do with The Navy Yard? with Train schedules? etc. NO! It had to do with Lincoln's activities every day. If they could pin down Lincoln's habits, they could develop a plan.
Stringfellow left Washington April 1, aided by "a person linked to the history of "these days". Booth? Who else? I'm citing this info to confirm that the leadership of the Confederacy was Totally involved.
Note: Stringfellow was in Washington on March 17th when Boothe attempted to grab Lincoln, and failed. I bet that Davis learned of this sooner than you think.
Stringfellow was arrested during his trip home, but escaped. He didn't get back to R'mond until after the assassination. (He crossed the Potomac with the aid of Thomas Jones, on the same night that Booth did.
Doesn't all this show "Overall supervision from the "Top"?
Geez! I'm getting wordy - but I want to share. Someone else can add to this.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 12-16-2016 04:39 PM by Gene C.)

Fascinating. First I've heard of this. How and where did you find this?
Who is Stringfellow and what caused him to be arrested?

John - Your not wordy enough for me, I want to hear more.
(what's C.R. pg 410 ? and is it online?) Is it abbreviation for some type of Confederate Records?

John Fazio · 12-17-2016, 04:19 PM

(12-14-2016 07:19 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote: I do not discuss Harney when I give the escape route tour. Although it is hard to believe, the 12 hours go by really fast and I usually have barely enough time to get in all the important stuff about Booth and his plot. There's just not enough time to get into the other plots against Lincoln.

I also think it's likely a matter of personal preference. I, personally, have yet to be convinced that the Confederate government had any real involvement with John Wilkes Booth. In this way Harney and Booth are not really connected other than their shared goal of assassination, in my mind. I openly discuss the few connections that Booth had with the Confederacy (his trip to Montreal, John Surratt's life as a courier, etc.) but I am always honest with the bus group that there is no smoking gun between the two.

Dave:

With respect, have you read my book yet? If you haven't I suggest that you do so. Apart from just finding it an interesting read on a subject of mutual interest, you may be persuaded to change your view about Confederate government involvement in the assassination and the attempted assassinations that occurred on April 14. The book has had some fine reviews, you may know. One fellow, described only as an "Amazon Customer" and being totally unknown to me, described it as "...probably the best (book) on the market on the American Civil War." Joseph Truglio of Civil War News said that ""I found every page an adventure". And Ed Steers said that the book "...puts Booth's plan to decapitate the Union front and center." Further, twenty-six of the 28 Amazon reviews give it 5 stars. If you have read it, and still feel as you do on the issue, please tell me why. You say that in your view the Confederate government had no "real" involvement with Booth. Please tell me what involvement it had, in your view, other than "real" involvement. You say you openly discuss with your tourists the "few connections" that Booth had with the Confederate government, specifying his trip to Montreal and Surratt's "life as a courier". There were, however, at least three trips to Montreal in 1864 (March, April and October, the second and third for 10-12 days each) and as for Surratt, he was more than just a courier, he was Benjamin's courier. This fact is stated categorically by Eli Evans, Benjamin's biographer, and confirmed by one of Surratt's biographers. Ste. Marie swore in an affidavit that Surratt made weekly trips to Richmond. Well, if Surratt was Booth's right hand and he made weekly trips to Richmond as Benjamin's courier, isn't it reasonable to conclude that Benjamin knew all about Booth and his team and what they were doing and not doing? Similarly, Thomas Harbin was known to be close to Booth; they met both before and after the assassination. After the assassination, Harbin left the country for 5 years. When he returned, he reminisced about his work as a Secret Service agent and, among other things, said he reported directly to Davis. Isn't it therefore reasonable to conclude that Davis too knew all about Booth and his team, etc., from Harbin and well as from Benjamin through Surratt? Well, if these two leaders knew all about Booth, etc., and if Booth were really intent on kidnapping rather than killing, and if they knew that kidnapping would do them no good at all (as top Confederate agent Thomas Nelson Conrad said, "...even a child could conclude in the light of subsequent events that the move would have accomplished no tangible good to the Confederacy"), then why didn't they stop him?

Further, we know that Blackburn attempted to kill Lincoln with "infected shirts", a scheme that was positively known to Davis and therefore Benjamin, per the letter of Kensey Johns Stewart.

Further, consider Powell's statement that Federal prosecutors "did not have the one half of them" (i.e. conspirators). Do you suppose that a conspiracy of such breadth could have been carried out without the knowledge of the Confederate government?

Further, consider Powell's statement that it was his impression that arrangements had been made with others for the same disposition as he was to make of Seward.

Further, consider the Union agent's letter from Paris, quoting the Confederate agent "Johnston" to the effect that if everything had gone according to plan, 15 Yankees would be dead. Do you suppose a conspiracy of such breadth could have been carried out without the knowledge of the Confederate government and Secret Service?

Further, consider that Ste. Marie swore in an affidavit that Surratt admitted to him (in Italy) his and Booth's complicity in the murder of Lincoln, but would not say whether or not Davis was involved, which is as good as an affirmative answer because it means he knows and if he knew him to be innocent, he would simply have said so.

I am, of course, only touching the tip of the iceberg. One needs to read the entire book. It is saying too much to say that as a tour guide, you "owe" it to your tourists to familiarize yourself with the arguments favoring Confederate government complicity--you don't "owe" anyone anything-- but it is fair to say that it would be at least desirable. After all, it isn't only I making the case, it is also Tidwell, Hall, Gaddy, Hanchett, Current, Sears and Winkler, at least, and perhaps, by now, even Steers. Not to mention Bingham and the other Judge Advocate Generals, the Commissioners and the Boutwell Committee at the time of the trial.

Thanks.

John

SSlater · (This post was last modified: 12-17-2016 11:18 PM by SSlater.)

(12-15-2016 08:42 AM)Gene C Wrote: I know very little about these other plots except for what I read here on the forum.

My first impression is that Harney's plan to blow up the White House is half baked, and not to put to much credence into it.

Come Retribution makes some sense, although the detail was a bit confusing to me, and it's been so long since I read it.
Interesting to speculate, were these plans made for Booth and his group, or some one else. Who decided to authorize the attempts and who may have decided to pull the plug on the attempts (if anyone)
150 + years after the event, I'm doubtful we will ever know.

Interesting to see how the theories on the over all scenario shifts from deep confederate plot to kill Lincoln back to one fanatic and his few followers (2-4, depending on if you include Mom and Jr. Surratt) acting on their own.
John (SSlater) I would like to read more on what you have found. I enjoy these discussions and you all sharing your finding with us. (even though at times I find it somewhat confusing)
I also find it interesting on who is a credible witness, so many people claim to have some knowledge, to have seen or heard something. Then the fading and changing memories caused by age of many witnesses that were at one time very credible.

If Booth had hadn't been such an egomaniac, he might have been able to get away with it.
I guess he had to be an egomaniac to ever attempt it to begin with. (I need to go back and re-read the thread on Booth's Mental Health)

Gene C. I agree that the plan to "Blow up the White House" is half baked. To begin with - Booth told Atzerodt that the plan was to mine the White House. Atzerodt exaggerated that statement, when he gave his confession, to "Blow up the White House. I concur that "land-mines" , in the White House lawn, could be effective and were a quick and lethal weapon.
Land mines were light weight, easily concealed, and detonation could be controlled. These were more in line with Harney's most recent experience. He had been in charge of a small body of men with hand-grenades, in Charleston. He invented a system to detonate the "bomb", when stepped on. It was a match acting as a plunger. Simple and deadly.
As you read these stories from History, bear in mind that 80% of these people could not read or write, but learned to, years later. Their orders were ae confusing to them,, as their stories are to us.

(12-15-2016 04:58 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(12-15-2016 12:19 AM)SSlater Wrote: The biggest surprise I got was the "Hogan" guy who claims that he delivered a message to Booth, from the confederate higher-ups (?) not to shoot Lincoln.

We know what the article here says about A.C. Richards is false, so I wonder how much of the entire article should be believed. Maybe Hogan's story is false, too?

RJ Maybe we can learn more about Richards and Hogan, and their stories, from Lake County people. They published the first accounts, maybe they have more to say now. Apparently, the encounter did happen, but who lied? I'll work on that after New Years.

(12-16-2016 04:37 PM)Gene C Wrote: Fascinating. First I've heard of this. How and where did you find this?
Who is Stringfellow and what caused him to be arrested?

John - Your not wordy enough for me, I want to hear more.
(what's C.R. pg 410 ? and is it online?) Is it abbreviation for some type of Confederate Records?

Gene C Stringfellow was another Spy active in the Civil War. Pres. Davis had sent him to Washington, to do his thing. He was at a party when someone offered a toast to Lincoln. When it was over he suggested a toast to Pres. Davis. Needless to say "He started running"
It appears he had to much to drink. He was captured in Maryland but escaped to Richmond. Did I answer the "C.R" question? If not "C.R" means "Come Retribution" Tidwell's book on the Confederate Secret Service and the Lincoln Assassination. (It's a Bible to us.)

JMadonna · 01-22-2017, 10:01 AM

I believe that Booth WAS part of the Harney plot. His role was to organize a 'serenade' during Lincoln's weekly cabinet meeting. When all members assembled on the porch to hear it the bomb would explode killing them all. When Harney was arrested, Booth believed he had a license to kill and acted.

John Fazio · 01-22-2017, 07:44 PM

(01-22-2017 10:01 AM)JMadonna Wrote: I believe that Booth WAS part of the Harney plot. His role was to organize a 'serenade' during Lincoln's weekly cabinet meeting. When all members assembled on the porch to hear it the bomb would explode killing them all. When Harney was arrested, Booth believed he had a license to kill and acted.

Jerry:

I know of no evidence that it was Booth who was to organize the "serenade" mentioned by Atzerodt in his May, 1865, confession, though it might have been. But I do agree with you that there was a contingency plan for Booth to decapitate the government in the event of the failure of the Harney mission. That is why, when he learned that Harney had been captured on the 9th, he summoned Surratt back to Washington from Montreal on the 10th, telling him, by telegram, that their plans had changed. And that is why he made his plans to take out Lincoln, Seward, Stanton, Johnson, Stanton and Gant on the 14th.

John