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Susan Higginbotham · 12-19-2017, 07:47 PM

Did Mary ever dispute Keckley's statement about the asylum? Offhand, I can't think of any motive for Keckley's inventing it.

I think it's also important to remember that Lincoln and Mary were grieving the same loss, and that Lincoln was managing to carry on with his public duties nonetheless while Mary was having difficulty even bringing herself to get dressed. Under those circumstances he might well have thought that Mary needed a jolt, and threatening her with the asylum might well have provided it.

kerry · 12-19-2017, 08:06 PM

(12-19-2017 07:47 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Did Mary ever dispute Keckley's statement about the asylum? Offhand, I can't think of any motive for Keckley's inventing it.

I think it's also important to remember that Lincoln and Mary were grieving the same loss, and that Lincoln was managing to carry on with his public duties nonetheless while Mary was having difficulty even bringing herself to get dressed. Under those circumstances he might well have thought that Mary needed a jolt, and threatening her with the asylum might well have provided it.

If she did dispute it, it doesn't survive. Interestingly, in Caroline Heally Dall's journal she claimed that Herndon told her *Lincoln* was insane for a time after Willie died. Newspaper reports at the time also said initially that he was taking it harder. One actually said this: "Mrs. Lincoln is more calm and even in her disposition, is less demonstrative and more guarded.—Hence she is able to control her feelings in such a manner that few, even those in the White House, will know how deeply she has felt this affliction." Another said: “Mr. Lincoln was completely prostrate at first by the death of his boy and some of his intimate friends were anxious for its effect upon him. Friday night, and all day Saturday, he was in a stupor of grief, and seems to care little even for great national events; but on Sunday he began to recover from the shock, and is now, though deeply bowed down by his great affliction, in nowise incapacitated for the duties of his position.” I think a lot of later accounts minimized Lincoln's grief because of the expectation that a man would be stoic, but it's clear he gained control quickly and Mary didn't.

STS Lincolnite · 12-19-2017, 09:03 PM

(12-19-2017 06:01 PM)L Verge Wrote: I don't believe either that Mr. Lincoln would have committed his wife to an asylum...

I also agree that such a statement as his would have been a normal male response of the time to try and curb hysterical behavior.

Like you, I don't think Lincoln would have actually had Mary committed but I can see him "threatening" something of the sort. And I would suppose that males would be the ones more likely to make the direct "threat" of institutionalization to their wife. But I also could see a female confidant saying something similar. Not in this exact anachronistic language, but something like "you need to get it together or your husband will send you to an asylum." As you said, it didn't take much to have a woman committed so I'm sure there were a number of women who knew a peer or two who had been committed (even if for only a short time). It could have been done quietly or otherwise - depending on the woman's social standing I suppose. I'm sure the threat of institutionalization in an insane asylum to any woman of the time would have put a scare into them.

Eva Elisabeth · 12-20-2017, 06:13 AM

"And I would suppose that males would be the ones more likely to make the direct "threat" of institutionalization to their wife. But I also could see a female confidant saying something similar."

I just can say it's the typical "classic" kind of "helpless" parents reaction and threat (over here) to calm down a kid that acts up" and gets "out of control", and men I think tend to feel more helpless in dealing with emotional "outbreaks".

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 12-20-2017 11:58 AM by Gene C.)

I have a tendency to believe there was a touch of "Drama Queen" to Mary

"Drama Queen
''Definition of a drama queen:
People (mostly girls - but boys play their part) who like to blow everything totally out of proportion because they either :

a) Want to seek attention
b) Have some emotional dysfunction and it's their duty to make life harder for everyone around them
c) Just simply can't get over it
d) Extremely miserable and insecure
e) All of the above
Drama queens can't keep relationships going and don't have any real friends. Majority don't realize they are a drama queen and always say 'I don't like drama in my life', yet they are the one thing in common with all of the problems around them and too damned stubborn to admit that they are wrong. Remember--STEER CLEAR AND RUN AS FAR AS YOU CAN!!!''
''I am extremely demanding and get pissed right off when I don't get my way!''

by AngelicaAngelico August 19, 2011
Urban Dictionary
____________
Mary's grief was real, but her actions made it more difficult for those close around her to deal with their own grief.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 12-20-2017 04:14 PM by L Verge.)

A report from my "agent" at St. Elizabeths: Two historians at the facility told him that they had no doubt that at least the Center Building could have been seen from the White House in 1862. There were only three buildings of any height in the city at that time -- the unfinished Washington Monument, the Capitol, and the White House.

A good source for getting a perspective is the ca. 1846 photograph of the White House because it shows the southern façade of the building, and that is what would have overlooked the area across the river where the hospital was located. Both President Lincoln's bedroom and that of Mary were on the south side of the White House on what is really the third floor. We are all familiar with the southern view, and the oval exterior makes room for oval rooms inside. Lincoln slept in a room east of the Yellow Oval Room, and Mary in a room west of it. Willie died in a room on the northwest side of the mansion - it's termed the West Room today. I even found out that Tad slept in a room converted from a dressing room.

I think it is safe to assume that the event that we are discussing occurred in Mary's room sometime after Willie's funeral, so a window in that room should have given a view of the asylum. As for what building Lincoln was referring to, it is likely that it was the tallest one, the Center Building. However, that building has never been white, so far as we can find out. There were other buildings painted white, but I suspect that Mrs. Keckly (or her writer) miswrote when describing the building as white. They were working six years after the death of Willie.

Today, my "agent" went to what is referred to as the Penthouse at the new hospital at St. Elizabeths. The old Center Bldg is totally gutted, so the Penthouse is now the highest point on the campus and a good distance from the Center Bldg. Using binoculars, he could still see Center, even with trees and other buildings now. He has no doubt that Lincoln could have seen the Center Bldg. from the White House. The old building is now on the part of the campus that is owned by Homeland Security, so he will have to apply for permission to visit it.

(12-20-2017 03:21 PM)L Verge Wrote: A report from my "agent" at St. Elizabeths: Two historians at the facility told him that they had no doubt that at least the Center Building could have been seen from the White House in 1862. There were only three buildings of any height in the city at that time -- the unfinished Washington Monument, the Capitol, and the White House.

A good source for getting a perspective is the ca. 1846 photograph of the White House because it shows the southern façade of the building, and that is what would have overlooked the area across the river where the hospital was located. Both President Lincoln's bedroom and that of Mary were on the south side of the White House on what is really the third floor. We are all familiar with the southern view, and the oval exterior makes room for oval rooms inside. Lincoln slept in a room east of the Yellow Oval Room, and Mary in a room west of it. Willie died in a room on the northwest side of the mansion - it's termed the West Room today. I even found out that Tad slept in a room converted from a dressing room.

I think it is safe to assume that the event that we are discussing occurred in Mary's room sometime after Willie's funeral, so a window in that room should have given a view of the asylum. As for what building Lincoln was referring to, it is likely that it was the tallest one, the Center Building. However, that building has never been white, so far as we can find out. There were other buildings painted white, but I suspect that Mrs. Keckly (or her writer) miswrote when describing the building as white. They were working six years after the death of Willie.

Today, my "agent" went to what is referred to as the Penthouse at the new hospital at St. Elizabeths. The old Center Bldg is totally gutted, so the Penthouse is now the highest point on the campus and a good distance from the Center Bldg. Using binoculars, he could still see Center, even with trees and other buildings now. He has no doubt that Lincoln could have seen the Center Bldg. from the White House. The old building is now on the part of the campus that is owned by Homeland Security, so he will have to apply for permission to visit it.

Forgot to mention that the White House stands 60 feet high -- good vantage point for seeing distances.

Susan Higginbotham · 12-20-2017, 05:58 PM

Great information, thanks!

L Verge · 12-21-2017, 04:00 PM

Do y'all think that Mrs. Keckly kept a diary and that much of her remembrances in the book were taken from that?

She lived with Mrs. Lincoln for awhile after the widow left Washington. Anyone know where she was when the book was being written and published?

RJNorton · 12-21-2017, 04:29 PM

I do not know about a diary, but I have one source that says she dictated her memoirs for the book while she was in New York laboring to sell Mary Lincoln's old clothes (1867). I know Robert Lincoln tried to suppress publication of the book. I do not know how successful or unsuccessful he was, and I do not know how many copies of her book actually sold. I do know the book ended the friendship between Mary Lincoln and Elizabeth Keckly.

kerry · (This post was last modified: 12-21-2017 05:21 PM by kerry.)

She was definitely in New York, and the ghostwriter is named as James Redpath in some sources. She made no mention of a diary and said she told them everything and then provided the letters as proof. She was living with a family in New York doing sewing, and wrapping up the Old Clothes stuff. I feel like there is info in Behind the Scenes that has more significance than has been recognized, but haven't been able to figure out exactly what. I believe she named the woman she was living with, which I thought was a little odd, given she redacted the names of most people. She spends a lot of time describing the tiny room she is in, as though her life was over. I know the scandal must have ruined her business, but it was a very abrupt change in her self-portrayal. I'm not sure if the editors did that -- probably, because it made her seem more submissive and womanly, when really it was a pretty bold book on a number of levels. It seems very few copies sold, but so much of it was published in the papers that it almost didn't matter. There are also weird gaps in the letters published, and I wonder what she and Mary wrote about in the interim. This is how the book ends:

"Weeks lengthened into months, and at Mrs. Lincoln's urgent request I remained in New York, to look after her interests. When she left the city I engaged quiet lodgings in a private family, where I remained about two months, when I moved to 14 Carroll Place, and became one of the regular boarders of the house. Mrs. Lincoln's venture proved so disastrous that she was unable to reward me for my services, and I was compelled to take in sewing to pay for my daily bread. My New York expedition has made me richer in experience, but poorer in purse. During the entire winter I have worked early and late, and practised the closest economy. Mrs. Lincoln's business demanded much of my time, and it was a constant source of trouble to me. When Mrs. L. left for the West, I expected to be able to return to Washington in one week from the day; but unforeseen difficulties arose, and I have been detained in the city for several months. As I am writing the concluding pages of this book, I have succeeded in closing up Mrs. Lincoln's imprudent business arrangement at 609 Broadway. The firm of Brady & Keyes is dissolved, and Mr. Keyes has adjusted the account. The story is told in a few words. On the 4th of March I received the following invoice from Mr. Keyes . . . This closed up the business, and with it I close the imperfect story of my somewhat romantic life. I have experienced many ups and downs, but still am stout of heart. The labor of a lifetime has brought me nothing in a pecuniary way. I have worked hard, but fortune, fickle dame, has not smiled upon me. If poverty did not weigh me down as it does, I would not now be toiling by day with my needle, and writing by night, in the plain little room on the fourth floor of No. 14 Carroll Place. And yet I have learned to love the garret-like room. Here, with Mrs. Amelia Lancaster as my only companion, I have spent many pleasant hours, as well as sad ones, and every chair looks like an old friend. In memory I have travelled through the shadows and the sunshine of the past, and the bare walls are associated with the visions that have come to me from the long-ago. As I love the children of memory, so I love every article in this room, for each has become a part of memory itself. Though poor in worldly goods, I am rich in friendships, and friends are a recompense for all the woes of the darkest pages of life. For sweet friendship's sake, I can bear more burdens than I have borne."

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 12-21-2017 06:16 PM by L Verge.)

Why does the name James Redpath sound familiar? Also, I was not aware that any research had been done on Mrs. Keckly’s son – even a book entitled Nobody’s Son. http://sablearm.blogspot.com/2012/12/pvt...icted.html

(12-21-2017 04:29 PM)RJNorton Wrote: I do not know about a diary, but I have one source that says she dictated her memoirs for the book while she was in New York laboring to sell Mary Lincoln's old clothes (1867). I know Robert Lincoln tried to suppress publication of the book. I do not know how successful or unsuccessful he was, and I do not know how many copies of her book actually sold. I do know the book ended the friendship between Mary Lincoln and Elizabeth Keckly.

Interesting side note referencing Robert Lincoln in the piece on Mrs. Keckly's son that I posted above:

(Note: Keckley was vilified for the intimate details she divulged and the private letters of Mary Lincoln that were included as an appendix to the book. Robert Todd Lincoln, in one of many ugly moments that marked his long life, blocked publication of the book and published his own parody, disdainfully entitled Behind the Seams; by a ***** Woman who Took Work in from Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Davis and Signed with an "X," the Mark of "Betsey Kickley (*****) denoting its supposed author's illiteracy.")

RJNorton · 12-21-2017, 06:20 PM

(12-21-2017 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: Also, I was not aware that any research had been done on Mrs. Keckly’s son

Rich Smyth talked about him in a post here.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 12-21-2017 06:42 PM by L Verge.)

(12-21-2017 06:20 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(12-21-2017 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: Also, I was not aware that any research had been done on Mrs. Keckly’s son

Rich Smyth talked about him in a post here.

It appears from the article done by a military historian on that blog that George Hobbs enlisted under his real (white) father's name -- Kirkland. I wonder if he's listed on the burial records under that name. Probably not, but just a thought.

See above - This is why the name James Redpath seemed familiar to me - John Brown admirer - and it makes sense that he might have been the ghost writer for Elizabeth Keckly (if she had one).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Redpath

kerry · (This post was last modified: 12-21-2017 06:42 PM by kerry.)

(12-21-2017 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: Why does the name James Redpath sound familiar? Also, I was not aware that any research had been done on Mrs. Keckly’s son – even a book entitled Nobody’s Son. http://sablearm.blogspot.com/2012/12/pvt...icted.html

(12-21-2017 04:29 PM)RJNorton Wrote: I do not know about a diary, but I have one source that says she dictated her memoirs for the book while she was in New York laboring to sell Mary Lincoln's old clothes (1867). I know Robert Lincoln tried to suppress publication of the book. I do not know how successful or unsuccessful he was, and I do not know how many copies of her book actually sold. I do know the book ended the friendship between Mary Lincoln and Elizabeth Keckly.

Interesting side note referencing Robert Lincoln in the piece on Mrs. Keckly's son that I posted above:

(Note: Keckley was vilified for the intimate details she divulged and the private letters of Mary Lincoln that were included as an appendix to the book. Robert Todd Lincoln, in one of many ugly moments that marked his long life, blocked publication of the book and published his own parody, disdainfully entitled Behind the Seams; by a ***** Woman who Took Work in from Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Davis and Signed with an "X," the Mark of "Betsey Kickley (*****) denoting its supposed author's illiteracy.")

That is quite an accusation! (and I know you are just quoting the source and not making it yourself) I doubt Robert was behind it -- it's the work of someone who likes to write stupid, offensive stuff about what's in the news, not a crafted hit piece. One time I for some reason decided to skim it and there were cracks in there about Mary, so it's not like it was just offensive to Keckley.

The authorship was debated a lot in the early 1900s, and some seemingly credible accounts indicate several white men (more than the two claimed by Keckley, but not Swisshelm, as some have suggested) met with Keckley regularly to work on the book. Redpath was active in journalism and politics - he was like ambassador to Haiti or something. Hamilton Busbey was the other guy suggested, and that goes along with Keckley's later interviews, naming the publication he worked for. There has got to be correspondence somewhere about this book -- clearly people talked about it and supposedly got it pulled. There should be more of a record. I believe publishing house archives have a lot of useful information that has not been explored. There is a letter by someone who mentioned helping Nicolay get letters from a "colored woman," which may have been Keckley, but I imagine they were destroyed. I'm just convinced there was a lot more to this whole story.

L Verge · 12-21-2017, 06:55 PM

(12-21-2017 06:42 PM)kerry Wrote:
(12-21-2017 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote: Why does the name James Redpath sound familiar? Also, I was not aware that any research had been done on Mrs. Keckly’s son – even a book entitled Nobody’s Son. http://sablearm.blogspot.com/2012/12/pvt...icted.html

(12-21-2017 04:29 PM)RJNorton Wrote: I do not know about a diary, but I have one source that says she dictated her memoirs for the book while she was in New York laboring to sell Mary Lincoln's old clothes (1867). I know Robert Lincoln tried to suppress publication of the book. I do not know how successful or unsuccessful he was, and I do not know how many copies of her book actually sold. I do know the book ended the friendship between Mary Lincoln and Elizabeth Keckly.

Interesting side note referencing Robert Lincoln in the piece on Mrs. Keckly's son that I posted above:

(Note: Keckley was vilified for the intimate details she divulged and the private letters of Mary Lincoln that were included as an appendix to the book. Robert Todd Lincoln, in one of many ugly moments that marked his long life, blocked publication of the book and published his own parody, disdainfully entitled Behind the Seams; by a ***** Woman who Took Work in from Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Davis and Signed with an "X," the Mark of "Betsey Kickley (*****) denoting its supposed author's illiteracy.")

That is quite an accusation! (and I know you are just quoting the source and not making it yourself) I doubt Robert was behind it -- it's the work of someone who likes to write stupid, offensive stuff about what's in the news, not a crafted hit piece. One time I for some reason decided to skim it and there were cracks in there about Mary, so it's not like it was just offensive to Keckley.

The authorship was debated a lot in the early 1900s, and some seemingly credible accounts indicate several white men (more than the two claimed by Keckley, but not Swisshelm, as some have suggested) met with Keckley regularly to work on the book. Redpath was active in journalism and politics - he was like ambassador to Haiti or something. Hamilton Busbey was the other guy suggested, and that goes along with Keckley's later interviews, naming the publication he worked for. There has got to be correspondence somewhere about this book -- clearly people talked about it and supposedly got it pulled. There should be more of a record. I believe publishing house archives have a lot of useful information that has not been explored. There is a letter by someone who mentioned helping Nicolay get letters from a "colored woman," which may have been Keckley, but I imagine they were destroyed. I'm just convinced there was a lot more to this whole story.

Thanks for the update and the clarification on Robert. I'm not entirely sure that I like RTL, but I too would doubt that he would lower himself to such a level.