Did William Coggeshall Save Lincoln's Life?

[John Fazio]

(09-28-2016 08:46 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Let us know what you find in Columbus. My concerns are that nothing seems to come from a primary source and that the hand grenade reference just does not match the technology of the time and that it appears to have happened in a vacuum with no other corroborating testimonies from anyone else on or near that train car or platform. Lincoln may have sworn Coggeshall to secrecy, but someone else would surely have reported such an event given the turmoil following Lincoln's election and in preparation for his trip to DC.

Laurie:

I will. The grenade does not trouble me as much as it troubles you, but the absence of corroborating testimonies certainly does. After all, it was recorded that a condition of the track between Illinois and Indiana was deemed to be threatening, which is why the train was thereafter preceded by a pilot engine. It was also recorded that a bomb was found in a carpetbag in Lincoln's car near Cincinnati. And, of course, the Baltimore plot is recorded and heavily documented. I will be looking at Coggeshall's diaries and the other files, but I will also be looking at other accounts of the journey and other diaries and memoirs. Stay tuned.

Two final thoughts: How plausible is it that with all the people traveling with Lincoln, everyone else would already have exited the Harrisburg train and were thus already aboard the Baltimore train or in transit between the two trains, leaving only Lincoln himself and Coggeshall in the Harrisburg train? Possible, of course, but unlikely. It is also possible, but unlikely, that those closest to Lincoln resented the attention he was paying to the new kid on the block and may therefore have ignored him. The problem with possibilities is that they are infinite, which is why we must settle for probabilities.

John

[Gene C]

(09-29-2016 01:26 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  The problem with possibilities is that they are infinite, which is why we must settle for probabilities.

You are possibly and quite probably right about that.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Mr. Fazio - one of your main arguments is "Why should he have fabricated the story?". My reply is in post #75. Please allow me the v.v. question - what makes him to your opinion beyond doubts not to do so? Embellishing and adding some flavor to oneself when being (only a minor) part of a historical event (i. e. journey) is a quite human trait, isn't it?

[L Verge]

(09-29-2016 01:26 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(09-28-2016 08:46 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Let us know what you find in Columbus. My concerns are that nothing seems to come from a primary source and that the hand grenade reference just does not match the technology of the time and that it appears to have happened in a vacuum with no other corroborating testimonies from anyone else on or near that train car or platform. Lincoln may have sworn Coggeshall to secrecy, but someone else would surely have reported such an event given the turmoil following Lincoln's election and in preparation for his trip to DC.

I am still trying to mesh it with the Pinkerton reports of Lincoln as an invalid accompanied by Kate Warne, I believe last to enter the train, etc.

IMO, this new kid on the block was a journalist with a bend towards literary fiction, whose verbal report to his wife was also embellished by her.

Laurie:

I will. The grenade does not trouble me as much as it troubles you, but the absence of corroborating testimonies certainly does. After all, it was recorded that a condition of the track between Illinois and Indiana was deemed to be threatening, which is why the train was thereafter preceded by a pilot engine. It was also recorded that a bomb was found in a carpetbag in Lincoln's car near Cincinnati. And, of course, the Baltimore plot is recorded and heavily documented. I will be looking at Coggeshall's diaries and the other files, but I will also be looking at other accounts of the journey and other diaries and memoirs. Stay tuned.

Two final thoughts: How plausible is it that with all the people traveling with Lincoln, everyone else would already have exited the Harrisburg train and were thus already aboard the Baltimore train or in transit between the two trains, leaving only Lincoln himself and Coggeshall in the Harrisburg train? Possible, of course, but unlikely. It is also possible, but unlikely, that those closest to Lincoln resented the attention he was paying to the new kid on the block and may therefore have ignored him. The problem with possibilities is that they are infinite, which is why we must settle for probabilities.

John

[John Fazio]

(09-29-2016 10:35 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Mr. Fazio - one of your main arguments is "Why should he have fabricated the story?". My reply is in post #75. Please allow me the v.v. question - what makes him to your opinion beyond doubts not to do so? Embellishing and adding some flavor to oneself when being (only a minor) part of a historical event (i. e. journey) is a quite human trait, isn't it?

Eva:

1. I did not say that it was "beyond doubts" that he would not have fabricated the story; I said that I find the conclusion that he did so unlikely. It's an open question, which is why we are having this discussion.
2. As for what you regard as "quite a human trait", the most that can be said is that it is sometimes a human trait to embellish and sometimes not, but it is rarely a human trait to fabricate something out of whole cloth, i.e. to pass off as truth something that is completely false. Most historians and chroniclers try to deliver something close to the truth most of the time. Don't you? If you answered that question in the affirmative, why would you suppose that others do not have the same standard?
3. In my opinion, your suggestion that Coggeshall told the story he did for the purpose of impressing his wife is unlikely. Most men try to keep things straight with their wives, knowing that they will lose all credibility with them if they lie and are found out. Furthermore, the time for impressing is during courtship (if even then), not after marriage.
4. As for Coggeshall's reason for asking that Lincoln keep the incident secret (always assuming the essential truth of the story), it was his reason, not Lincoln's. If Lincoln perceived that Coggeshall was a devout and pious fellow, surely he would respect that.

John

---

(09-29-2016 01:39 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(09-29-2016 01:26 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(09-28-2016 08:46 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Let us know what you find in Columbus. My concerns are that nothing seems to come from a primary source and that the hand grenade reference just does not match the technology of the time and that it appears to have happened in a vacuum with no other corroborating testimonies from anyone else on or near that train car or platform. Lincoln may have sworn Coggeshall to secrecy, but someone else would surely have reported such an event given the turmoil following Lincoln's election and in preparation for his trip to DC.

Laurie:

I obtained and quickly read a copy of Inside Lincoln's Cabinet: The Civil War Diaries of Salmon P. Chase. There is no reference to Coggeshall in the book, but it is not a good source, because there are many days when Chase made no entries and, more importantly, there are vast gaps in his coverage. For example, there is nothing between Lincoln's election and December, 1861, which would include the journey to Washington. Similarly, there is nothing between October, 1862, through August, 1863, and nothing from October, 1863, through June, 1864, and nothing from November, 1864, through April, 1865. For purposes of this discussion, therefore, it cannot be relied upon.

Stay tuned.

John
[/i]
I am still trying to mesh it with the Pinkerton reports of Lincoln as an invalid accompanied by Kate Warne, I believe last to enter the train, etc.

IMO, this new kid on the block was a journalist with a bend towards literary fiction, whose verbal report to his wife was also embellished by her.

Laurie:

I will. The grenade does not trouble me as much as it troubles you, but the absence of corroborating testimonies certainly does. After all, it was recorded that a condition of the track between Illinois and Indiana was deemed to be threatening, which is why the train was thereafter preceded by a pilot engine. It was also recorded that a bomb was found in a carpetbag in Lincoln's car near Cincinnati. And, of course, the Baltimore plot is recorded and heavily documented. I will be looking at Coggeshall's diaries and the other files, but I will also be looking at other accounts of the journey and other diaries and memoirs. Stay tuned.

Two final thoughts: How plausible is it that with all the people traveling with Lincoln, everyone else would already have exited the Harrisburg train and were thus already aboard the Baltimore train or in transit between the two trains, leaving only Lincoln himself and Coggeshall in the Harrisburg train? Possible, of course, but unlikely. It is also possible, but unlikely, that those closest to Lincoln resented the attention he was paying to the new kid on the block and may therefore have ignored him. The problem with possibilities is that they are infinite, which is why we must settle for probabilities.

John

[RJNorton]

John, I would be more inclined to believe the grenade story if I could find evidence of any of the other Lincoln-related claims made by Coggeshall. If he were really important enough to be invited to attend Cabinet meetings, wouldn't this be mentioned in at least one of the 15,000+ Abraham Lincoln books (not counting Koch's)?

Regarding the claim that Coggeshall said to Lincoln, "Come with me to Washington and I shall go safely"....the Fehrenbachers thought so little of Coggeshall's veracity that they did not even include him in their book Recollected Words of Abraham Lincoln.

[John Fazio]

(10-02-2016 02:47 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  John, I would be more inclined to believe the grenade story if I could find evidence of any of the other Lincoln-related claims made by Coggeshall. If he were really important enough to be invited to attend Cabinet meetings, wouldn't this be mentioned in at least one of the 15,000+ Abraham Lincoln books (not counting Koch's)?

Regarding the claim that Coggeshall said to Lincoln, "Come with me to Washington and I shall go safely"....the Fehrenbachers thought so little of Coggeshall's veracity that they did not even include him in their book Recollected Words of Abraham Lincoln.

Roger:

Good points, as usual. Of course, neither of us has read all 15,000 books, nor will we. As for the Fehrenbachers, they may not have known of Freda Postle Koch's revelation in 1985, inasmuch as it was a self-published book that had very limited circulation. Then again, maybe they did know of it and felt there wasn't enough evidence to support Mary's story. The book came to my attention only because I met a woman in Lakeside, Ohio, ten or 12 years ago, who knew the author and her husband well and who, when she found out I was a CW buff, sent me an inscribed copy.

Please see my most recent message to Laurie (today) re Chase's Diary.

More later, after I have checked the Ohio Historical Society.

John

[John Fazio]

Howdy everyone:

I thought you would like to know that I quickly read 13 Desperate Days, a 1964 account, by John Mason Potter, of the journey to Washington from Springfield in 1861. Regrettably, it contains no index or references and has only a perfunctory bibliography. Still, as nearly as I can tell, there is no reference to Coggeshall. There is, however, something more important, and it is that the author does not describe a switch of trains in Harrisburg as is described (apparently) by Coggeshall. Rather, he describes a scene in which Lincoln is taken by carriage to a train that is waiting for him on a siding, away from the railroad station. The train consists only of a baggage car and a passenger car in addition to the locomotive. Ostensibly, it is waiting to take officials of the railroad back to Philadelphia, but in fact its real purpose is to take Lincoln to Washington ahead of schedule, to foil the Baltimore plot. Sad to say, this is another nail in the coffin of Coggeshall's story, as related by his wife, Mary, in 1908. But there is more.

In Victor Searcher's book, Lincoln's Journey to Greatness, etc., there is a reference to Coggeshall, but only to his book on the journey, which is described by Searcher as a "slim volume" consisting of a compilation of newspaper accounts. If this is so, then it would suggest most strongly that Coggeshall wasn't even on the train, because if he were on the train, he could and would relate a first-hand account without the need of help from newspapers. Another nail.

These two items tip the balance, for me, against authenticity of Coggeshall's account. But I'm not finished yet. I still do not regard the issue as conclusively settled.

I was not able to visit the Ohio Historical Society yesterday, as planned, to study the Coggeshall papers, but I'll get there.

John

[Eva Elisabeth]

Great sleuthing, Mr Fazio - thanks for sharing!

[ELCore]

(10-05-2016 04:40 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  Howdy everyone:

Thanks for your research.

[RJNorton]

I second Eva and Lane. Thanks much, John.

[John Fazio]

Hello Everyone:

Thank you for your messages. I have additional material.

I have already said that in 13 Desperate Days, the author (Potter) describes, not two trains adjacent to each other in Harrisburg, with Lincoln and others leaving one and boarding the other (per Coggeshall), but a single train, consisting only of one passenger car, a baggage car and the locomotive, away from the station, waiting on a siding, to which Lincoln, with others, is brought by carriage from the Jones House, where he had been dining with Governor Curtin and others. This scenario is repeated in A. K. McClure's fine book Abraham Lincoln and Men of War-Times (1892) and also in Michael J. Kline's more recent work The Baltimore Plot: The First Conspiracy to Assassinate Abraham Lincoln. There is some variation in their accounts as to who rode with Lincoln in the carriage and who rode with him on the abbreviated train from Harrisburg to Philadelphia (where he would board another train, which originated in New York, for Washington, through Baltimore), but the variation is not relevant to the issue before us, except to say that none of the three sources mentions Coggeshall as being at the dinner, in the carriage or on any of the trains.

Significantly, all three sources describe the transfer, by horse, of the passenger car of the Lincoln train in Baltimore, at 3:30-4:00 a.m., from the President Street Station to the Camden Street Station, about a mile distant. There, it would be coupled to a regularly scheduled B&O train, which would then make the final run into Washington. Again, no parallel trains with Lincoln and his party disembarking from one and boarding the other.

Though I still plan to review the Coggeshall Papers, at this stage I find the evidence compelling that Coggeshall's account has no basis in fact and I am therefore forced--pro tempore--to revise my previously held view that the equities favored its authenticity. This is the second such revision, re the assassination, I have had to make (the first related to the etched message in the window of Booth's hotel room in Meadville, Pennsylvania). I believe that it is most likely that the fabrication came from Coggeshall, not Mary; that she merely repeated, in 1908, what she had been told by her deceased husband some 40 years previously. I cannot believe that she would have desecrated his memory by attributing to him something he had never said. I apologize to anyone I may had led astray. Stay tuned.

John

[L Verge]

(10-07-2016 07:40 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Hello Everyone:

Thank you for your messages. I have additional material.

I have already said that in 13 Desperate Days, the author (Potter) describes, not two trains adjacent to each other in Harrisburg, with Lincoln and others leaving one and boarding the other (per Coggeshall), but a single train, consisting only of one passenger car, a baggage car and the locomotive, away from the station, waiting on a siding, to which Lincoln, with others, is brought by carriage from the Jones House, where he had been dining with Governor Curtin and others. This scenario is repeated in A. K. McClure's fine book Abraham Lincoln and Men of War-Times (1892) and also in Michael J. Kline's more recent work The Baltimore Plot: The First Conspiracy to Assassinate Abraham Lincoln. There is some variation in their accounts as to who rode with Lincoln in the carriage and who rode with him on the abbreviated train from Harrisburg to Philadelphia (where he would board another train, which originated in New York, for Washington, through Baltimore), but the variation is not relevant to the issue before us, except to say that none of the three sources mentions Coggeshall as being at the dinner, in the carriage or on any of the trains.

Significantly, all three sources describe the transfer, by horse, of the passenger car of the Lincoln train in Baltimore, at 3:30-4:00 a.m., from the President Street Station to the Camden Street Station, about a mile distant. There, it would be coupled to a regularly scheduled B&O train, which would then make the final run into Washington. Again, no parallel trains with Lincoln and his party disembarking from one and boarding the other.

Though I still plan to review the Coggeshall Papers, at this stage I find the evidence compelling that Coggeshall's account has no basis in fact and I am therefore forced--pro tempore--to revise my previously held view that the equities favored its authenticity. This is the second such revision, re the assassination, I have had to make (the first related to the etched message in the window of Booth's hotel room in Meadville, Pennsylvania). I believe that it is most likely that the fabrication came from Coggeshall, not Mary; that she merely repeated, in 1908, what she had been told by her deceased husband some 40 years previously. I cannot believe that she would have desecrated his memory by attributing to him something he had never said. I apologize to anyone I may had led astray. Stay tuned.

John

John - I thank you for being willing to change opinions, at least for the present. It reminds me of the good old days of gentlemanly behavior in the history field. Keep us abreast of anything else that you find on Coggeshall, please.

[ELCore]

(10-07-2016 06:04 PM)L Verge Wrote:  John - I thank you for being willing to change opinions, at least for the present. It reminds me of the good old days of gentlemanly behavior in the history field. Keep us abreast of anything else that you find on Coggeshall, please.

I second all of that.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I triple...this discussion has been enjoyable as shown that different opinions can turn out fruitful, on the personal as well as on the research level.