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Maykeith · 10-11-2015, 06:36 PM

A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

STS Lincolnite · 10-11-2015, 07:30 PM

(10-11-2015 06:36 PM)Maykeith Wrote: A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

It seems there were some who knew of the relationship but few spoke of it outside a very tight circle of people. I suspect that her father Senator John Parker Hale refused to allow his daughter to be interviewed to protect her and that there was no great push by authorities to interrogate her as they wanted protect her father. It didn't help even authorities who actually may have wanted to question her that she, along with her father quickly moved to Spain to take his new position. Prior to Lincoln's death, he had appointed Hale Minister to Spain.

Gene C · 10-11-2015, 08:16 PM

Ditto on Scott's comments.
Lincoln's Assassins is a good book. (Although I'm not convinced she was really his fiancé. I think he was using her)

Welcome to the forum.

RJNorton · 10-12-2015, 04:07 AM

(10-11-2015 06:36 PM)Maykeith Wrote: A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

Keith, here is the what Theodore Roscoe wrote about this in The Web of Conspiracy:

"Arrest an English actress who had been on the stage with Booth, yes. Arrest a young lady who had chatted with Booth in the parlor of a boardinghouse. Arrest and imprison a backwoods farmer's wife who had served a dish of tea to a caller who might have been Booth. Arrest and imprison a scullery maid who had cried, "Hoo-ray for Booth." But do not arrest the society woman who had consorted with him in Washington drawing-rooms. Do not impound this amourette who seated the killer near Lincoln at the Inaugural. Never breathe the name of Booth's betrothed. She is privileged, beyond the law, sacrosanct. She is the daughter of a United States Senator!"

Houmes · 10-12-2015, 03:59 PM

(10-12-2015 04:07 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(10-11-2015 06:36 PM)Maykeith Wrote: A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

Keith, here is the what Theodore Roscoe wrote about this in The Web of Conspiracy:

"Arrest an English actress who had been on the stage with Booth, yes. Arrest a young lady who had chatted with Booth in the parlor of a boardinghouse. Arrest and imprison a backwoods farmer's wife who had served a dish of tea to a caller who might have been Booth. Arrest and imprison a scullery maid who had cried, "Hoo-ray for Booth." But do not arrest the society woman who had consorted with him in Washington drawing-rooms. Do not impound this amourette who seated the killer near Lincoln at the Inaugural. Never breathe the name of Booth's betrothed. She is privileged, beyond the law, sacrosanct. She is the daughter of a United States Senator!"

Another curious case:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/s...dis-200310

Wild Bill · 10-12-2015, 04:11 PM

As the French say,the more things change, the more they remain the same.

Thomas Kearney · (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 05:24 PM by Thomas Kearney.)

(10-11-2015 06:36 PM)Maykeith Wrote: A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

At the time of the assassination, Lucy was in a pickle. Her father had recently been promoted to ambassador of Spain and was to move at the end of the month. When her family learned word of the assassination, she couldn't believe that John Wilkes Booth was the assassin. When Senator Hale heard this, he attempted to whisk her away from her beloved Wilkes but failed. It is rumored that Lucy went to visit Booth's badly burnt body on the ironclad and had to be dragged out of the room after throwing herself on his body. According to the Richmond papers, Lucy was not called to testify because Stanton feared that her relationship with Booth would increase the reputations of the conspirators, and she had moved to Spain by the time the trial started.

L Verge · 10-12-2015, 05:43 PM

(10-12-2015 05:19 PM)Thomas Kearney Wrote:
(10-11-2015 06:36 PM)Maykeith Wrote: A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

At the time of the assassination, Lucy was in a pickle. Her father had recently been promoted to ambassador of Spain and was to move at the end of the month. When her family learned word of the assassination, she couldn't believe that John Wilkes Booth was the assassin. When Senator Hale heard this, he attempted to whisk her away from her beloved Wilkes but failed. It is rumored that Lucy went to visit Booth's badly burnt body on the ironclad and had to be dragged out of the room after throwing herself on his body. According to the Richmond papers, Lucy was not called to testify because Stanton feared that her relationship with Booth would increase the reputations of the conspirators, and she had moved to Spain by the time the trial started.

Thomas - what is your source for that quote? I have never read about "Booth's badly burned body." Some ill-informed people have stated that Booth burned to death in the barn, but I have never seen reference to him being badly burned when dragged out alive from the barn.

Eva Elisabeth · 10-12-2015, 05:55 PM

Weren't women in general less "in demand"? Clara Harris e.g. didn't have to testify. Also - is/was it likely Lucy Hale would have added anything ground-breaking?

STS Lincolnite · (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 06:50 PM by STS Lincolnite.)

(10-12-2015 05:43 PM)L Verge Wrote: Thomas - what is your source for that quote? I have never read about "Booth's badly burned body." Some ill-informed people have stated that Booth burned to death in the barn, but I have never seen reference to him being badly burned when dragged out alive from the barn.

I have never seen any evidence to support the fact Booth's body was burned in any way. There is nothing that I know of in any of the trial testimony either (Mrs. Surratt & Co., John Surratt, or Johnson impeachment trial). That being said, I would like to know what the source on that is. As Laurie said there are undoubtedly lots of spurious stories out there.

I also seriously doubt that Lucy Hale was anywhere near Booth's body on the Montauk. Senator Hale probably didn't want her anywhere near Booth when he was alive and I'm sure he would have kept a tight leash on her after the assassination and before they went to Spain. John E could would be the best person to address the rumor that Lucy boarded the Montauk to view Booth.

(10-12-2015 05:55 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Weren't women in general less "in demand"? Clara Harris e.g. didn't have to testify. Also - is/was it likely Lucy Hale would have added anything ground-breaking?

I think in the 19th century, women would have generally been regarded as less reliable or credible witnesses. But of course that would depend on what they had to say and how it supported the case that was trying to be made.

I actually think Lucy Hale would have had some things to add. Not necessarily so much about the assassination itself or the night of April 14th, but certainly about what went on it the late fall of 1864 and spring of 1865. We may have gotten a much clearer picture of Booth's movements between cities (when he did so and why) and maybe even who he met with. Also what his moods were like and when. We might also know what information Lucy passed along to him (probably innocently). She probably had some information Booth would have liked to know about as a result of her father's position as well as her own social standing and connections.

Dennis Urban · 10-13-2015, 08:32 AM

What I believe Lucy Hale could have testified about was her long-standing relationship with JWB and how his personality and political feelings may have changed in the time she knew him. Certainly she would provide a significant insight into his thinking. Because of her father, I do not believe Booth would tell her about the kidnapping plot. But what she could relate about him personally would be historically important.

L Verge · 10-13-2015, 08:49 AM

Someone please refresh my memory as to exactly when Lucy and JWB became an item? Personally, I would also like to interview Ella Starr. For some reason, I still suspect that she was his closest confidante in the female category.

RJNorton · 10-13-2015, 08:57 AM

I checked Terry Alford's book regarding Lucy Hale, and Dr. Alford writes, "He (Senator Hale) met privately on April 15, 1865, with Andrew Johnson and apparently gave the new president a satisfactory explanation of his daughter's connection with Booth." Later Dr. Alford notes that this meeting may explain why Lucy's name is absent from the investigation records.

I have a question: the veiled woman who apparently threw herself on the body aboard the Montauk...was this lady Lucy Hale (for sure) or just rumored to be Lucy Hale? Is there conclusive evidence it was Lucy Hale? I second Scott's mention of John Elliott as a person who might have specific information on this.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 01:25 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(10-12-2015 06:39 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:
(10-12-2015 05:55 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Weren't women in general less "in demand"? Clara Harris e.g. didn't have to testify. Also - is/was it likely Lucy Hale would have added anything ground-breaking?

I think in the 19th century, women would have generally been regarded as less reliable or credible witnesses. But of course that would depend on what they had to say and how it supported the case that was trying to be made.

I actually think Lucy Hale would have had some things to add. Not necessarily so much about the assassination itself or the night of April 14th, but certainly about what went on it the late fall of 1864 and spring of 1865. We may have gotten a much clearer picture of Booth's movements between cities (when he did so and why) and maybe even who he met with. Also what his moods were like and when. We might also know what information Lucy passed along to him (probably innocently). She probably had some information Booth would have liked to know about as a result of her father's position as well as her own social standing and connections.

Thanks for your thoughts, Scott! Booth was dead before the trial began and was not tried. What could Lucy Hale have added as for determining the remaining conspirators' involvement/guilt/verdict?

Thomas Kearney · (This post was last modified: 10-13-2015 03:53 PM by Thomas Kearney.)

(10-12-2015 05:43 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(10-12-2015 05:19 PM)Thomas Kearney Wrote:
(10-11-2015 06:36 PM)Maykeith Wrote: A question for the group. I just finished reading Lincoln's Assassins by Chamblee. He makes the point that Booth's secret fiancé Lucy Hale was not interrogated after the murder or called to testify at the trial. Is this true? If so, anyone know why? Was the relationship that secret? It seems like she could have unique insight.

Maybe it was too "political" to talk to her....soil the family name......

At the time of the assassination, Lucy was in a pickle. Her father had recently been promoted to ambassador of Spain and was to move at the end of the month. When her family learned word of the assassination, she couldn't believe that John Wilkes Booth was the assassin. When Senator Hale heard this, he attempted to whisk her away from her beloved Wilkes but failed. It is rumored that Lucy went to visit Booth's badly burnt body on the ironclad and had to be dragged out of the room after throwing herself on his body. According to the Richmond papers, Lucy was not called to testify because Stanton feared that her relationship with Booth would increase the reputations of the conspirators, and she had moved to Spain by the time the trial started.

Thomas - what is your source for that quote? I have never read about "Booth's badly burned body." Some ill-informed people have stated that Booth burned to death in the barn, but I have never seen reference to him being badly burned when dragged out alive from the barn.

Laurie,

Why are you bringing me down man? I told my mother my theory and she agreed. Ah but what did she agree on? Here is my theory:

According to the Confederate States Almanac, the evening of April 25th was pleasant weather, with sunset at 6:36 PM. But as for being inside the barn, the fire made it hundreds of degrees inside, so it was basically like being in an oven. So it is possible that Booth got at least first or second degree burns. His dentist and dermatologist were called on to the Montauk to make sure it was him, probably because of the potential burns. I am posting a link to the Almanac and an article about the different burn types on Healthline (try not to gag while reading the burn articles, this could be a breakthrough in the death of John Wilkes Booth).

https://ia600408.us.archive.org/8/items/...shm_bw.pdf

http://www.healthline.com/health/burns#Second-Degree4

http://www.healthline.com/health/burns#First-Degree3